The doors are open and we formally invite you into the Beer & Butterfly, so grab a drink and join us at the table. In our introduction we introduce the podcast and it's purpose and explain that Organisational Change Management (OCM) is the theme of Season 1. Ian Kingstone & Jonathan Parnaby (JP) introduce themselves as the hosts of the show so you can get to know us a little better at the start and more so as you listen through the episodes. We finish off the introduction by explaining how important feedback and engagement is to us and we are always looking for people to fill the third seat at the table, you, the audience.
Ian Kingstone 0:03
What you having then Jonathan,
Jonathan Parnaby 0:05
pint please mate, two points please
Ian Kingstone 0:07
Jonathan Parnaby 0:08
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting then
Ian Kingstone 0:10
there? sat at that table over there? Oh, yeah, I
Jonathan Parnaby 0:13
can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,
Ian Kingstone 0:18
we're just gonna tell him it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:23
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there who have we got
Ian Kingstone 0:27
is some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:33
Cool, fantastic. Well, let's crack on. Let's go over there.
Ian Kingstone 0:35
Welcome to the Beer & Butterfly
Jonathan Parnaby 0:37
a podcast where we talk transformation.
Ian Kingstone 1:03
I'm Ian Kingstone.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:05
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.
Ian Kingstone 1:06
And we're your hosts. In today's episode, we want to introduce a podcast, why we're doing it, and also introduce ourselves as your hosts. So what's this podcast all about? And how are we going to engage other people? How do we want this to feel as a podcast as we as we kind of move forward,
Jonathan Parnaby 1:25
to engage in that conversation of, you know, what we love, which is, you know, supporting businesses to get value out of transformation. And I think you also want to kind of keep this quite informal, you know, if we know business transformation, or digital transformation can I wouldn't say a dry subject, but it could, it could turn into being a dry subject. And actually, there are lots of kind of entertaining and, and kind of informal stories that kind of surround it. And we kind of want to bring the light heartedness of that, that into this conversation, because otherwise, we're just gonna teach be teachers talking about methodologies, and which is great to a point. But also, we want to reflect myself, no, it's not a training course. It's
Ian Kingstone 2:12
a conversation around the trials and tribulations of business transformation and the things we've been doing and what works, what doesn't work and try and help people in that way. And almost, so they can grab a chair and join in.
Jonathan Parnaby 2:24
Absolutely. And I think our ambitions with this podcast is to try and hopefully get some people involved. So it's not just me and you.
Ian Kingstone 2:33
people asking you questions, maybe get more people involved in the actual podcast itself. So we can really kind of nail down some of these subject areas and grow all of us grow from from that. Sounds Sounds great.
Jonathan Parnaby 2:48
We've known each other for what 8 years.
Ian Kingstone 2:52
You said that earlier, it's that long is it?.
Jonathan Parnaby 2:54
Yeah, it is. Yeah, in 2012. We met each other at an interview, where you as the hiring manager, or one of the and I was the lowly BA, i'm only joking, the business analyst or hopefully applying for a business analyst role and that's kind of where we first met.
Ian Kingstone 3:13
We don't get to spend a great deal of time with each other but but over the years, we've met up at the pub had various conversations around what we're doing, what we've learned, what, what what we found worked, what hasn't worked, that kind of thing. And that's really where this is all come from. This is about trying to share some of that, that those conversations and trying to get other people to get involved this podcast about trying to get other people to get involved. In those conversations, ultimately, yeah, around, you know, the experiences we've had, and some of the stories we've had, we've got, I'm sure. around the whole business and digital transformation piece, where you want to you want to put it in all the various themes of that. Yeah, I mean, what what's your thought?
Jonathan Parnaby 3:59
Yeah, I think, as you said, we we've kind of got a link me and you we've have done since we met I think and we've got a lot of common interests professionally and personally. So we kind of just make sense. We were just kind of converting our conversations that we had in the pub into a you know, a podcast, and you know, we want kind of any any listeners to kind of imagine that we're still in the pub now. We just having a drink. It's an informal chat. Yeah, not last orders. No last orders bell in this pub. And hence why we call it the beer and butterfly. You know. So well, that beer that was the butterfly, the butterfly transformation, of course, so hopefully I didn't need to explain it, but that's why we call it we called it Yeah. And yeah, we kind of just want to explore topics and and kind of dive deeper into them. You know, and we kind of talked about when we're setting this podcast or however you want to do it and you want to do an episode and this and that and, and we kind of like you know, we're both film nuts and kinda like or TV. You know, we like TV shows, etc. So we kind of like the structure and as seasons. Absolutely. Season and episodes, right?
Ian Kingstone 5:07
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, it fits with what the Yeah, the way we were. Yeah, I really think, and it fits quite well into the podcast land anyway, I think,
Jonathan Parnaby 5:15
yeah, you can kind of pick the episodes you're interested in, you can kind of, you know, don't have to listen to them all do you. So we kind of want to do that. And for each season, we kind of want an overarching theme that kind of runs through and that kind of ties the whole season together. So it kind of has a collection of episodes that, you know, fit and gel, well
Ian Kingstone 5:35
We can get, as we've said, Before, we can get down into the details in that theme, then, rather than just just gloss over something I think we can really drive in, through through that theme that season. Through a series of episodes, yes, really pulling out what that really means to us and how that does work for us.
Jonathan Parnaby 5:55
And we know like the some of these topics are, you know, they're so broad and deep. I just don't think you can do it justice with one episode of 40 odd minutes or whatever recording you just, you know, I think they're just so big. Yeah, you know, so I think we just kind of felt like it makes sense to us, really. And, yeah, and we can kind of break it down. But we really want to, you know, encourage participation. And obviously, you guys probably don't know us at all. We're just two unknowns on a microphone. But I think over time, we want to be able to get that feedback and questions in
Ian Kingstone 6:32
it good to get feedback on what we've talked about other people's experiences. And we can either bring that in into future podcasts, or we don't know yet. We'll see where that where that goes. And maybe bring other people into future podcasts as well. That would be really good fun. What are we going to pick us out for this season, then?
Jonathan Parnaby 6:51
I think I'll probably had a hand in this one. And we're going to pick organisational change management, or ocm, as we'll probably refer to it. And I think as I said in my intro it's a passion. And I just love talking about it. So I think as a first season, selfishly, I think I can just jump straight in, it's kind of a comfort blanket for me. And I just think it's a great topic, you know, change management is about people. And people are the heart of any transformation that you do. And without them, it's not true transformation. So to be able to kind of explore that topic across a variety of episodes, I think it's just gonna be really good. I'm actually genuinely pumped for it, you know, generally can't wait to kind of get into the nitty gritty of, you know, what is the change impact? What is a, you know, change management framework? How do you get change networks on board? All these kinds of stuff? And yeah, can't wait.
Ian Kingstone 7:48
So for me, I'm gonna love that theme anyway, I mean, for me, all the challenges I've seen around and all the tough stuff, if you want around any kind of transformation has always been around the people aspects, not the technology, or even the process change if you want. It's always been around the people and people side of things. And at the core of that is ocm organisational change management. But also, I think it's the one area that a lot of people either says, the fluffy stuff, and do we really need to do this, or they don't necessarily know how to go about doing it. Or some people do it very well. Don't get me wrong to do. But I think there's a lot more we can learn around that whole subject matter. And I actually think it's the core and I look across business transformation alone, across several, if you want management principles and things and organisational change management is probably only one of those, but it intertwines into all of them in every aspect wherever you go, that intertwines into those. So hopefully we can bring that out. Yeah, as we go through, but focus clearly on organisational change management. So I think perfect is a great starter as well for us. And I also
have got a lot to talk about. Yeah. So I kind of want to get into it now. But we have we've got a we've got the episodes.
Yeah, we'll break the episodes down. So and perhaps we'll talk about that in a short while
Jonathan Parnaby 9:35
I've been working in business transformation for probably over 12 years or so. I actually kind of started I kind of fell into it. Would you not consider what you do.
Ian Kingstone 9:50
Before that transformation?
Jonathan Parnaby 9:51
Yeah, I would. I would probably want to consider it official and the reason why I say that it is official transformation. But I don't think I was doing the role in an official capacity, if that makes sense. Yeah. So yeah, I was working for a small debt management company, I was asked to kind of troubleshoot, make, you know, help other departments to make them more efficient and better. And I used to love those to go in as the troubleshooter draw some process maps very crudely in like Excel or whatever the tools that I could get myself, you know, get my hands on. And yeah, kind of just identify ideas and ways of improvements. And then we put them in, we'll make some gains, get some value. And then usually what would happen is I'll be asked to run the department and which I hated, absolutely hated. It just is kind of made me realise early in my career, what I enjoyed and what I didn't, which is I enjoyed project work, I enjoy, change, enjoy getting stuck into to, you know, moving forward, not housekeeping, not housekeeper. Not business, as usual. I just can't my brain isn't wired that way. I could very quickly learn, learn that way. And then I kind of got into a BA role at Dunelm and, and that's kind of the story I learned the craft, learn the trade. I got on and worked on some, you know, good projects in stores, ecommerce. And then kind of right, rode the ranks really for for that company moved to, you know, Boots that some more VA work there and ultimately then we did a relocation to the southwest, which was a massive change and transformation in its own right.
Ian Kingstone 11:33
I remember when you had it. Yeah. I remember thinking, yeah, it was quite a challenge. But you came from the same kind of part of world that I was brought up in my younger years. So it kind of seemed, it was good to have conversations with you about places I knew, and things like that. So that that must have been quite an upheaval
Jonathan Parnaby 11:54
It was it was I still kind of think is the biggest change I've made to my life and actually the biggest achievement in some ways, you know, we had a goal, we kind of set out to do it, we made it happen. And it was hard, hard work, you know, upheaval of your whole family leaving friends and family behind trying to sell houses in a rubbish market. I remember being two weeks down there living with in-laws. And I got a phone call from my neighbour saying that this guy in the garden just jumped the fence like snooping around I was thinking oh god. Like, how am I gonna deal with this? I'm four hours away. But anyway, we got through it. And the day we sold that house was like I had a few drinks there, shall we say? That was a good, good day. But yeah, anyway, you kind of moving back to Well, yeah, but when you when you
Ian Kingstone 12:46
then he came in and worked on the same programmes I was working on. Yeah. And that then became that I would consider that absolute true transformation. Big time.
Jonathan Parnaby 12:57
Yeah, big time. And actually, the what sold me that position when we had that interview was the transformation that that, you know, the company was about to kind of go on. And I thought this is really exciting to be a part of that from the beginning. Literally, the beginning was amazing. And I kind of see that as a real cornerstone in my career. Definitely. Because I came into that role as a lead BA managing the team, a business analyst, you know, moving forward, putting in the practices. I mean, that company didn't even know what business analyst was. So that was in tough times going on.
Ian Kingstone 13:30
You you and your team helped shape that transformation. Because we, we we did an idea. I didn't know what we didn't know about organisation big organisation. Yeah. You know, siloed. Regional, yeah, and needed to come together. And we didn't know a lot of the stuff that your team brought to the forefront that allowed us to design that estimation. So and
Jonathan Parnaby 13:53
we actually really important, and we had to get, you know, up and running very quickly. So we can get on to like solution selection kind of perspective. And, you know, I remember the brief was like, yeah, you need to get the requirements for the entire business. Which means literally everything. Yeah, everything. Yeah. But we did it, you know, there were high level, but we did it me and the team worked tirelessly to do it. But yeah, not to kind of go in deep on that, because I think that's the whole episode in itself, just that whole programme. But, but yeah, I think that that enabled me to transition into change management. Yeah. Which is still a passion of mine. And I'm really glad to have the opportunity to get involved in it. Because I love the people centric side of change. I think it's a fascinating subject. And, and actually, you know, one of my whole mantras around change management is to try and make it more practical for people for professionals. Because it gets badged as the fluffy stuff, the theoretical, yeah, ethereal frameworks that get applied and actually, there are some real tangible stuff you can do that makes a massive difference. So I had a chance to do that. And then basically hit a bit of bump in the road where I got made redundant. And I still kind of claim that's probably one of the best things that ever happened to me because it forced me to go out on my own. So I set-up my own business, which is called The Transformation Office and we're basically a bespoke, or rather boutique consultancy where we kind of real, we kind of tailor make our services and solutions for our clients. And you know, we're small, or agile, we're nimble, we can really help businesses, I kind of specialise more on the kind of small to medium sized businesses, where they've not kind of had used to working with consultancies and yeah, not looked back, really, it's been, it's been brilliant. And to have that, that kind of opportunity just to be free, free from personal development plans for you.
Ian Kingstone 16:02
what you're gonna do, yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 16:03
you're in control of your own destiny, I think that is, for me, the most rewarding thing.
Ian Kingstone 16:08
So gonna be quite self motivated, though,
Jonathan Parnaby 16:11
in that big time. Big time, you know, you're suddenly become, you know, Sales and Marketing Director, Finance Director, Operations Director, all of these roles and hats that you've got to wear. And you know, you're not necessarily good in all of them. And it really helps you to kind of shine a mirror on yourself to kind of say, yeah, I'm all right there. But maybe maybe need some help in some of the other areas that we can always learn, right? We can do better. But yeah, that's that's kind of my story. And yeah, kind of service quite a lot of clients along the way for the past four years. And yeah, awesome, great experience in business transformation, and programmes and projects along the way. Cool.
Ian Kingstone 16:52
So about you, who are you? So I'm Ian Kingstone. I am, I started out some 25 Plus, now years ago, what I would consider transformational. I didn't see it, like, like yourself, I didn't see it as being I didn't use the word transformation, digital business transformation back in the 90s. But I started out in an IT perspective started as a programme did a degree start out as a programmer for life insurance to know that which I really did not enjoy. Programming was fun. But the subject matter of Life Assurance wasn't really my thing. In the sense of didn't excite me, I wanted to get to all the exciting programming jobs and very quickly moved into kind of project management. And then I really lucked out on on a placement, I've done a work placement for my degree. And somebody on that work placement had got into quite senior position in a large manufacturing organisation. And they asked me if I would come and head up there IT the several manufacturing sites across the UK, large capital equipment type manufacturing. And so I got dropped in the deep end really, in a role that I was probably nowhere, nowhere set up for right for in that in that respect, learnt quickly. So ended up managing the state of IT service, etc, etc, and all that type of work and bringing people in to help do that. But also, I went in and they've given a blank chequebook to an ERP provider at the time. And I got in there and found that you know, it was going to go off the rails costs were going through the roof, all the usual stuff, you see, and still see unfortunately, and and so I got into ERP and ERP got me into transformation. So you know, I took a ballsy decision at quite a young age to go vanilla with that ERP and get rid of all the bespoke and work out what we could put in vanilla that we add value. And that's that's the real things that started that learning for me on how am I adding value through this transformation? Are we actually transforming? Or are we just doing change, and I don't mean that in a negative way, but are we actually adding new value or changing the way in which we operate and so on so forth. So I went back from there into their larger ERP as programme project management, senior programme type roles. SAP got involved with international SAP paper industry, then the dairy and fast moving consumer goods side of things. I had a little stint then as a Services Director for Microsoft partner and again, but I was still considered myself rather than just resources and services, helping organisations put in technology to make the changes that they wanted to make and I was really interested in the ones that were more transformational. And then I ended up the company that you ended up where I met you, which is where we looked at that organisation and said, Look, this organisation is growing, you know, every five years, it's doubling in size. It's, it's an interesting organisation, but it's, it's a federation of small businesses. And it needed to transform and put the capability in as a group to allow it to grow to that level. that involved a lot of technology. But it also involved a lot of what I would consider business transformation. And that's where I look at things now. Okay, is you've got digital technology, you've got business transformation. And the tools to do that you join the two together, and you drive new value in your brain models and ways of working. So so since then, I also got made redundant from that organisation when we done what we needed to do. And so I also started my own thing for a while, work for some, some larger retail organisations, a few, mainly around my skills around ERP, I guess, and SAP and things like that, but also got into transformation. And then more recently, in the last three years, really, I've been helping smaller organisations if you want, either coaching and helping mentor their teams in transformation, or actually helping them set themselves up for successful transformation. Yeah. And I've kind of moved away from running these programmes and projects, if you want to more helping people look what capabilities they need, and how to develop those capabilities and support them in that way more of consultative, advisory, coaching type role,
Jonathan Parnaby 21:47
what has been what's been the I suppose the highlight of your career then? Like, what, where would you position your kind of cornerstone moment? You know, I mentioned my work and other waste management company, getting involved in that greenfield business transformation programme from, you know, from the literally the beginning, and, you know, wearing all the scars along the way. But what's yours
Ian Kingstone 22:08
anyway? Yeah, I would, I would say it's probably the same company. But then I look back and I
leaving University and going to this is a while ago, now, leaving University and going to my programme, this job, and this is a big organisation. Yeah, you know, getting into it. And all the technical stuff I saw, that was a big moment. I remember when I was heading up it and putting any ERP for that capital equipment manufacturer, that was really, I learned so much about organisation there, so much about what worked, what didn't work, what was good, what was missing. And I travelled or, you know, worked in the States, I worked in Sweden, I worked in the UK, so I was moving around a lot and started to have a family as well. So there's lots of things going on at that time, which would, which I would still marked down as some real significant moments for me, in building the knowledge and expertise, if you want, that I've got today, I think the waste management organisation was turning into an energy organisation was probably the biggest because it the breadth of the transformation there. And the they were doing exceptionally well, besides beside them to us there. And so you know, there was so much opportunity, every time I put did some value analysis on another area or another business case, or for a portfolio of transformational change, right, there was more and more and you could see so much value that could be added there through not just digital technologies, but just through pure business transformational type changes. And so I think from an opportunity point of view from the ability to get on and the leadership that we're very good at letting you, you know, get on took a bit of work here, but that allowed you to get to that place. I think that was certainly there. And and we made some big, big boo boos in that organisation as well. Which, which also was a great learning curve.
Jonathan Parnaby 24:04
So probably business transformation on the side and put on the shelf for a moment. What makes you you What do you like doing as a person?
Ian Kingstone 24:13
Oh, outside of work? Yeah. Lots of movies. Yeah, love film, love music, film and music have done since a very young age. I actually before doing my degree, wanted to get into film. In fact, that was quite creative. art was always a good subject at school, and got into film. Making quite a young age with the cinecamera, and that kind of thing. And so I really wanted to I wanted to get into film, which then got me watching film, not just for the stories and the fun, but I also would watch certain sequences of film and think, how did they do that camera wise? You know, I'm thinking how did they do that one shot is gone. All right. I'd get really into that. So I've got quite into that music I was always into from a young age, I learned to play the guitar a young age. I've got half a finger on my left hand. There's another story about going to, but but that made me think why I walked into a guitar shop. And when they had guitar shops, more of them then and I thought, you know, I'm not gonna do this because of my, my half a finger. And that drove me down there. Well, now I'm gonna be able to do this. So it drove me down there and I managed to get home, get a guitar, and start playing guitar. And then as I went through my teenage years, I played in rock bands and so on so forth. So you know, pubs. Yeah, but but but it was all good fun. And that got me into Guitar Music of any form, really, but but I've got quite a wide taste of music. So music film, definitely. And then obviously, in more recent times, I've also got a family, kids, so keep yourself fit to a degree. And, you know, so you go out and do things. I like to travel a little bit when I can. So yeah, I enjoy doing the things that you kind of do as a family going out. I like to go to the pub. I like to get out on the pushbike. You know, those kinds of things none of it is full on. But but but all the kinds of things you do is going out and about, and we live in the countryside, and I enjoy the countryside, and so on. So how about yourself?
Jonathan Parnaby 26:33
Yeah. I think one of my major passions, which I don't get to do much actually since I got my family is snowboarding. Completely love it. No better escapism than being on top of that mountain. Just working out there we go left or right. That's all you really think about on the runs. Yeah, I love snowboarding. And I think ever since I moved to the southwest, obviously we live in Somerset surfing love to go surfing and not very good at it flounder a lot. But for the it's something about it's the same kind of thing as being in you know, the North Devon kind of coastline in the sea on a Sunday morning at 8-9 am when it's pretty deserted, and you kind of got the whole place to yourself. It's kind of very relaxing in a weird, like, Yeah, kind of weird, energetic way, because it's obviously not a relaxing thing to do. But mentally Is this a great escapism? So I love those two things. Films always, always love films. I obviously grew up in the the 80s, right. And I still have a passion for anything that is 1980s as a decade, I'm kind of obsessed with it. Because there any kind of films and music of that era. I just I just love I still listen to today and the annoyance of my family, especially my my children. And then yeah, gaming is another another hobby that I've kind of got into and I used to play Xbox and PlayStation going and wayback Mega Drive and all of those kinds of things. But about three, four years ago actually got into, you know, geek nerd alert coming along, but tabletop gaming and board gaming. And that's mainly because it's a social thing. You know, I felt like I missed just getting people around a table, doing something socialising having a few drinks, you know, the banter that can kind of ensue when you play in these kind of games, a lot of backstabbing, you can kind of do these, these kind of these skills that you don't normally get to practice, right, negotiation, you know, auction. Yeah, being sneaky. And some of those kind of things that would be classed as negative kind of personality traits, you can kind of just throw them into that situation. And then when you leave the table, everything's fine, you know? So yeah, I love all of that. And again, I think it just helps because it's quite a mental mental thing keeps the brain going. I kind of envisage me being this eighty year old man in an old person's home just still playing games that will try to coerce people around me to play, think that that is literally probably what I'll end up doing. But yeah, that's that's kind of me. So I think we're probably getting to the end of this little intro about ourselves intro obviously to our podcast, the Beer & Butterfly is all about hopefully that's come across. Yeah, so what's next? Well,
Ian Kingstone 29:36
I think the next episode, we'll get into the season and talk about what we're going to cover over the season and, you know, around change, organisational change management, and that whole piece, I think the other thing we've got to look at is is how people give us feedback. Yeah, and so we can get engagement with those that want to get in engage with our podcast. And yeah, put it out there, really. So this, this episodes really been more about introducing ourselves. So feedback on on any of that and on the subject that we've picked the theme we've picked for our season, organisational change management, and maybe what people want to hear, even in that in that season. And I think the next episode will lay out how we think we're going to approach that way it's going to work, and really get into some of the some of the detail.
Jonathan Parnaby 30:30
And let's be candid, right, let's be completely transparent here. This is the first time I and yourself have done a podcast.
Ian Kingstone 30:39
But let's get back to why we're doing this. And we want to relaxing, informal environment to discuss those business challenges, we all get around business transformation, and those people who are working business transformation will will, you know, will clearly have have their own, but we want to kind of keep that as a relaxed informal way. That way, you know, we can help other professionals, other executives and ourselves, we want them to feel like they're pulling up a chair. And they're grabbing a drink and joining in this conversation with us. So we've got to also think about how we, how we allow that conversation
Jonathan Parnaby 31:18
to happen. I mean, that is our mission. We don't want it to just be me, me and Ian, you know, talking about these things course that's gonna be the bulk of it. But yeah, if we can get to a point where we have this two way, engagement with the community, then yeah, I think that's gonna be some really good good insight into to what's going on out there. And also, hopefully, hopefully shaping the topics and episodes that we do in the future.
Ian Kingstone 31:43
Yeah, I think I think more talk about is more next in the next episode, but I think we've got to have some area where we can talk if people do have questions, and we can respond to that. So we'll make that happen together. Yeah. Brilliant. Great.
Jonathan Parnaby 31:54
Okay. Thanks for listening. And we'll catch you on the next one.
Ian Kingstone 31:57
Jonathan Parnaby 31:59
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the Beer and Butterfly. As always, we
Ian Kingstone 32:04
want to encourage participation. Yeah, so you can contact us at the website https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk. That's https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk. There, you'll find show notes on everything we've talked about in today's show, or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk..
Jonathan Parnaby 32:28
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.