We hope you've managed to find your favourite table as we kick off season 1 by introducing our overarching theme: Change...the heart of transformation. Throughout this episode Ian & JP catch-up over a pint to discuss the importance of Organisational Change Management (OCM) within transformation and also within everyday life. The hosts clarify why change was chosen as the first theme and then break down the upcoming episodes in which they will dive deeper.
Ian Kingstone 0:03
Well, what you having then Jonathan,
Jonathan Parnaby 0:05
Pint please mate
Ian Kingstone 0:06
two pints, please landlord
Jonathan Parnaby 0:08
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting then?
Ian Kingstone 0:11
Over there? sat at that table over there?
Jonathan Parnaby 0:13
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,
Ian Kingstone 0:18
we're just gonna tell him it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:23
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there? Who have you got
Ian Kingstone 0:27
some executives, some professionals? A few consultants.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:33
Cool. Fantastic. Well, it's quite hands go over there.
Ian Kingstone 0:35
Welcome to the Beer and Butterfly
Jonathan Parnaby 0:37
A podcast where we talk transformation.
Ian Kingstone 1:03
I'm Ian Kingstone.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:05
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.
Ian Kingstone 1:06
And we're your hosts.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:08
Today's episode is the season kickoff where we're going to give an overview of what we're gonna cover throughout the whole season, which is organisational change management.
Ian Kingstone 1:17
So hi, Jonathan. So we've been doing since we last caught up on this.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:22
Yeah, cheers. Yeah, I've been doing a few things, some good. Some bad things. Not not terrible. Don't worry. But yeah, I've been catching up with some good films, because I've had a lot of time to do that recently. watched the Old Guard on Netflix don't know if you've seen that, yeah, no, no, it's literally an original Netflix film. It's got Charlize Theron in it and they kind of play a group of mercenaries that are Immortals. It's got a Highlander vibe to it. Yeah. And but yeah, it was really it's better than I thought it would be.
Ian Kingstone 1:54
I guess that's on my list.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:56
on the list, and yeah, lots of action scenes. Although the one thing that niggled me with that film is that the main villain is Dudley the out of Harry Potter. And I just couldn't, I couldn't translate that. I couldn't unsee him as that character. But yeah, generally good film. Been watching Snowpiercer. Again on Netflix. Yeah. You familiar with? Yeah. Yes, that was good. Fun, quite like the film, even though it's kind of a random concept that I kind of like dystopian sci fi future, futuristic kind of things. So yes, I'm doing a lot of that. And yeah, weirdly. My neighbour's mother in law literally reversed into my car. So that was fun. Yeah, I said, I had a little note for the door saying, I'm sorry about this. But at least you got a note
Ian Kingstone 2:49
Jonathan Parnaby 2:50
exactly. Now, though, there was sweet and accidents happened. And they and actually, I was pretty cool. calm about it. Maybe because it got a lot of time at home with the pandemic and stuff to reflect a bit more. So yeah, yeah. So that was that's kind of been my week trying to think of anything else that's gonna happen that's influential. Probably not, I'm sure we come up. But yeah, what about you?
Ian Kingstone 3:17
Non work related, just just been doing stuff from the garden, the weather's been reasonably okay. Getting out and about when I've had time, going out on the bike a bit, pushed by the decking finished off, just tidying up stuff around the garden, that that, that kind of thing, nothing major to talk about. You we're coming into the main summer, so there'll be some, some breaks coming up and things like that. But we're just,
Jonathan Parnaby 3:46
I think, you know, during this pandemic kind of business that we all had to go for, I think, keeping, keeping busy and still achieving, taking things off completing things, I think, for me, and my whole kind of mentality is massively important. Because, you know, when it comes back to work, and working with clients, and talking about, you know, projects and business transformation, to enjoy enjoying getting value out of something. So I kind of need to recreate that home a little bit, to keep me going keep me sane, I suppose. But I've kind of run out now. That's it. I've ran out of little things to do.
Ian Kingstone 4:33
We're gonna start talking about this new this season, around change, organisational change management. And then we're going to talk on our experiences, which weren't in that pandemic world. I'm sure that might come into it a little bit on whether that means anything different or I think the ways of working so that's that's going to be I think, maybe something that comes up in this season a little bit of how would we do that. If we can't be You know, and a lot of work you and I've done in the past, we're usually in teams on site with organisations, you know, working in quite an agile way. And it's going to get quite interesting to get into some of those conversations as we go through the season.
Jonathan Parnaby 5:13
Yeah, I think naturally, it's going to come up. And quite rightly, because, you know, the world that we're entering into now is very different to the one we left. And, and yeah, I think, agility and, you know, flexibility is going to be key for it. And I think because it's change management, you know, the seeds of OCM, and everything, pretty much everything you do, you know, I liken back to, again, that personal experience I referenced in our intro, which was, you know, moving, relocating to the southwest. I mean, that was a massive change, change management journey for me and my family, you know, and not only for me and my family, but also the kind of friends and family that we left behind, as well, still seeing them by the way, but it's a change that everyone kind of had to adjust to, and, you know, kind of helping to kind of get, you know, my family in terms of, you know, making them all aware, they can get involved in the decision. I mean, fortunately, my daughter was only one at the time, so she didn't really
Ian Kingstone 6:17
Too young to make decisions about the houses and where she's moving to exactly. But
Jonathan Parnaby 6:21
you know, even even then, there's the story of when we did move to where we did, we were renting houses during the time I was trying to sell my house. And, you know, we were we got our into a primary school when we finally bought a house in a village outside the main town, and we needed to transfer a move her school. And she's already kind of built up a little, you know, group of friends. And I know, she's very young. But I had to sell that change to her. Yeah. And actually did apply change management principles to it. And it was quite, it's quite interesting when you kind of use it in a very personal. So I've
Ian Kingstone 6:58
always worked off the theory never buy a house of an electrician, because the electrics will be rubbish. Yeah, just a quick job on it. Yeah. But then the proper job. They, they know, they can fix it if they need to, yeah. So you've been using your craft at home? A little bit? Yeah, I
Jonathan Parnaby 7:11
think it was just quite an interesting experiences, like, you know, obviously, you know, first time to make her aware that we were going to change schools and, and obviously, being prepared for the fallout of that, because she actually didn't want to be her she already had an established life, you know, in the school land. And yeah, and then kind of telling her why we had to do it. And obviously, there was benefits for us. So the value out of why we want to make that change was actually financial. So we're gonna save, like petrol money, carting her into the main town and back and also time. Yeah, just, you know, four hours of, you know, probably two, three hours of your day just ferrying back and forth, hitting traffic, all those kind of things and the stress that it can induce. And actually, we wanted to kind of build a more of a community life in the village rather than
Ian Kingstone 8:02
living there, and no better way than your kids in school.
Jonathan Parnaby 8:05
Yeah. And so yeah, we kind of applied those those principles in a soft way. It wasn't like, you know, I don't have a big Gantt chart on the wall or anything.
Ian Kingstone 8:15
It's very well done. I didn't have a one pager that explained everything that's normally.
Jonathan Parnaby 8:22
Very very true. No, it's kind of in my head and just kind of took her through the various steps until the point where we actually got a trial day in the school, so that she could experience it and test it out kind of thing. And actually, from that point, where she actually met, and she still is, like, one of her best friends in school, she met her. And then that was the turning point. Yes, she can get it then she kind of understands what what that was like. And, and you actually came out said, Actually, I just want to go here I want to see, see my friend again. I've just met yesterday. And I was like, Yes.
Ian Kingstone 9:11
Yeah, you've been practising the craft at home, but then well, let's get into organisational change management a bit what we're going to talk about run around that, but yeah, this this kind of season. And I guess the, the big story for me is that a lot of organisations get into changing their systems or, you know, doing an upgrade of a core IT system or something that, you know, some kind of initiative like that, where they there's value in doing it, but they've not that, you know, functionality wise, maybe for their employees and maybe somebody on how they can engage with their customers on the customer journeys and so on so forth. But But, you know, explain to me where they, you know, where you've worked with a company on that, and then their view of maybe change management, then it can be a positive or it can be a challenge if you want, because I've seen a lot of organisations don't necessarily see the change management piece as part of just changing an IT system. Maybe you have, give us an example of somewhere where, where maybe that's coming, you've bumped into them.
Jonathan Parnaby 10:19
Yeah, God, wow. Loads of examples, unfortunately, sorry to say, there are probably too many examples of this. I wish there were fewer. But yeah, in my experience, the clients and businesses I worked with, they just either don't consider it, just don't consider it at all. Or, if they do consider it, they kind of pay lip service to it. And not actually either put the right people in place to handle manage it, or they're just kind of say, well, the project manager can deal with it. And that's fine. in certain instances, it just, again, it depends on what you're doing depends on the scale of the change, and the impact, etc. But yeah, the example that kind of springs to mind that was fairly recently it was I was working for a kind of medium sized, mechanical industrial client, who kind of design manufacture kind of wastewater and flood defence products and systems. And, yeah, really great company, actually, in terms of what they're doing very kind of groundbreaking, and the technology that they're actually inventing.
Ian Kingstone 11:25
Yes, is the word.
Jonathan Parnaby 11:27
They acquired a mechanical, electrical business. And they wanted to do an integration, which is basically they had a ERP solution that they wanted to integrate into this new business. And
Ian Kingstone 11:40
was that one they were existing using, like an acquisition onto our platform? Or was it a new platform centre?
Jonathan Parnaby 11:46
is essentially, yeah, acquire and then bring them on to the existing suite of Yeah, ERP tools and stuff like that. And which actually, you know, a few years back, I helped, kind of programme manage that implementation of the ERP system. So you knew you knew I knew? Yeah, yeah. But the thing that kind of sprung to my mind is the the business that was acquired their kind of knowledge or expectations of what was going to happen, you know, I'd speak to the the old Managing Director of that business. And, you know, he's like, well, this surely this is simple. You just go around with a CD and just pop it in the computers and install it and away we go. So, why why is this thing gonna take? Three, six months? just didn't get it? Just did not.
Ian Kingstone 12:35
Why can't you do that? Exactly. I wish I could.
Jonathan Parnaby 12:39
I wish it was as easy as putting a CD in and off you go. But he did not comprehend the the transformational change that would happen to his business. And obviously, there's cultural factors in there, too. Yeah. The acquired company they used to work in the way they work, they probably got your formal structures in place, and then now they're going to have to kind of work in a more formalised way. And as you know, in the ERP's, they are rigid to a point. And, you know, they promote best practice processes for how you do things. And they put in governance and structure just by their very nature controls. And he just didn't get like when I was building that programme for that integration. I built a people and people and change stream work stream. Yeah. Well, you obviously get why I did that, because it is a fundamental change for people and actually, from the way that they're organised. The way that they're in their hierarchy of people reporting into different people would be affected. Yeah, because they're not geared up in a way that is best for getting the best out of, you know, the value of the system and the business. So yeah, it's it's one of these one of many. Yeah, how about you, I mean, I'm sure very similar
Ian Kingstone 13:54
example actually, large, quite well known charity really, that they were looking to upgrade, their CRM got an old CRM system that they acquired at a split from from another organisation into existing charity if you want. And they were almost looking at just kind of an upgrade and what they mean by but not on the existing solution, but looking for perhaps, a new solution that could do new things they want to level up isn't that they considered it an upgrade, it was almost called a CRM upgrade. Yet this organisation that got real strategy, a great strategy to truly drive kind of insight to who who's you know who they're the members of that charity, and also, you know, their donors to that charity and so on and so forth. But they were looking at this IT project just as a pure well, we'll just put in this new but upgrade to our existing way of working and they weren't designing into that, where they're trying to go strategically where they're trying to drive better value for that. The members and their donors and their volunteers, and all of that, and not necessarily all of that was going to be in this system, but but they weren't looking at the one, why are they doing it, you know, not is not just to gain a bit more fun, more functionality, it was because they're bigger now they need to drive these new things, and they need the capability to be able to, to, to react to their, their members, and so on and so forth. And, and but one of the reasons was, they really want to get insight to what their members liked about the charity and all the different things that they were using within that charity. And it was really well, you know, it was a mindset thing, I think, for that organisation, certainly a senior level, that this isn't just about systems, this is about them changing one the way they might have worked things internally, but to adding new value, and potentially changing your operating model. Yes, certainly across the customer journey, or member journeys, if you want to call them that, and that side of things, so they've not really considered the change piece at all, it kind of played a little bit of lip service to it, or when we did last time, this person could help us with this, there are different company then in respect to where they are now. So they were very much focusing on IT team. It's pretty similar to spin up the discs put put their new software on on our desktops, and we'll start to use it, you know, move some data from one place to the other and it'll all be okay. Yeah. And and, and, you know, they didn't even understand necessarily whether the value they're trying to drive in their strategy where there's different types of data they would then need, and so on, so forth. So even the technology journey wasn't perhaps Nestle mapped out. So so it was really about, for me, it was about working with them to get a bolder vision. Go bold, if you're going to spend 100 grand or more on any IT system, make it transformational guys, make not change, not just an upgrade, make a chance to get some value for the investment. And, you know, a lot of organisations been really way more than that. And this organisation was spending more than there yet. So so so you know, you it was about, you know, going bold, what's the value? Why are we doing this, mapping that out, and getting their mindset and this is a big transformational change. So organisational change management sat at the heart of, of that kind of conversation, the technology was almost like, Well, we know, these types of technologies can do these things. We've seen it done in other places they weren't wasn't groundbreaking in technology, it was groundbreaking in that organisation, adding new value and changing the way it works, is transformational for that organisation. Yeah. So So yeah, I've seen that that's just one in the last 12-18 months, I could we could reel off 18 or 20 yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 18:03
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned value. Because, you know, for me value is the why, you know why? Why are we doing this thing in the first place? Why do we want to make that change happen? And, and for me, organisational change management is a massive unlock for value, which I think people again, just don't see. They think putting the ERP in is going to give you you know, benefits of an 100 grand here 200 grand now, whatever. But only if the people buy into it, change themselves work hard. And you know, adopt that that way of working, then yeah, if they don't, you just sunk a lot of money into changing a system that they're not going to use properly.
Ian Kingstone 18:51
Wow. Also, as you and I've both seen also previously, if those things aren't mapped out correctly, the design and what's needed and requirements are constantly changed, especially in some of the more larger organisations where you've got different requirements if you want, or deemed different requirements, and needs to get into design. And it was my word for us we did it this way. I don't know if there's none of that's outcome driven, you need to understand the value to say, Well, what are we trying to get to and how does that impact that? I mean, we could talk about value, management, that's a whole season in itself.
Jonathan Parnaby 19:23
I think I think your idea is equally as exciting as a conversation. Yeah,
Ian Kingstone 19:27
but but that change, organisational change management is totally intertwined into that. Because if you understand the value you're trying to get to and therefore the changes that need to happen. You and I both know there's only some of those are actual IT
but a lot of them are organisational design changes. Yeah. policy changes, or ways of working in the way people are doing thing changes which is all OCM.
Jonathan Parnaby 19:54
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But now I love the fact you mentioned that you encapsulate it as the heart, because that's exactly how I see OCMI see it as the heart is right there in the core the centre drives everything. And it's the the human the most human part of transformation.
Ian Kingstone 20:12
Yeah, so we're gonna do a season on organisational change management. Yeah, it's quite a big subject we've mentioned, it's the heart of the transformation. How should we break that down? And that's, you know, we thought this through on from an episode standpoint. So let's let's go over each episode. And maybe there's summary. So we can we can really engage on the the areas we're going to cover?
Jonathan Parnaby 20:36
Yeah, sounds good. I think, as you say, is it is a big, big topic, or I think when we did the kind of preparations for this, we kind of looked at it and when could we fit this in an episode and said, yeah, if it was five hours long, maybe but even then, you probably only skirt and across the tops of the, the, you know, the the conversations, but we kind of come up with a way of breaking it down. So I'll just run through a few of them and chip in as and when. But I think we want to start start off talking about change management frameworks. Yeah. For me, the framework is the blueprint of the whole OCM pace, it's the thing that tells you how you're going to get from A to B, and what kind of deliverables and what kind of core things you'll be doing as a change management practitioner or professional? And also, you know, do you have to create your own? Can you take them off the shelf? And how they're going to fit into the organisation? How do you make them fit? Yeah, so that's kind of Episode One. Episode Two, is all about the backbone of change, which is change impacts. Yeah, change impacts being, you know, what will the experience be of the organisation going through that change? negative positive everything in between? and really understand that and how, how we capture those, what kind of information should we capture as part of a change impact? What is your all those kind of cool stuff? Episode Three, change plans. So how do you take all that information, all that data that you've captured, and turn it into a proactive set of activities that's actually going to drive value especially into that, and then align those
Ian Kingstone 22:22
activities, I guess, with other activities that are going on? Absolutely. Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 22:25
And I think that's important as well, is that a lot of change workstreams. They're not autonomous, they are within a programme of transformation, which is dealing with infrastructure, it's dealing with, you know, system configuration, so it has to kind of sit in parallel of those activities and done at the right time. So we can talk about that as well. Episode Four is a good, I think, is a good meaty one, which is around on the change network. Yeah. So what is it? What is a change network? How do you create them? What are the pitfalls in setting one up? You know, I'm wearing quite a lot of scars from
Ian Kingstone 22:59
from by change network, you mean, the network of people that either are getting involved with delivering that change? Yeah, I mean, we'll get into the episode but but more about what that is. But I guess also how you manage that change. We talked about change plans, but in Episode Three, but but the control room side of things, and how you because every change is different, right? It's put on a plan, that's gonna take three months Exactly. Well, that's gonna take three weeks Exactly. Until we get into it and start and you might have mapped out and you change impacts, and then the likes and the plans, but you don't really know until you start getting some of that network going some of that feedback in that control room type activity. Absolutely. That's a great meaty episode
Jonathan Parnaby 23:43
Yeah, you can design and plan for the whole programme of change. But without that network without that control room in place, how do you know, it's gonna work now. Yeah, really, really good subject. I just kind of want to get into it now. But no, yeah.
Ian Kingstone 23:59
I was going
Jonathan Parnaby 24:01
to be Episode Five. So more on the the the change execution side of the wheel. So you know, talking about communications, yeah. Talking about awareness, engagement. Yeah. Usually at the start of the curve of how you kind of take people through, but it's so important. You know, how many times you've been on a programme of work where the businesses first been involved during UAT
Ian Kingstone 24:27
just drives me nuts. And then they're looking at it saying, Wait a minute, this doesn't work the way we needed to yet they don't know how they need to work because they don't realise that we're changing what they need, don't know the vision, don't know why and they don't know the outcomes and so on. Frustrating that it
Unknown Speaker 24:44
happens Episode Six kind of training capabilities. So you can tell people about the change, we can tell them that this is going to happen before the don't have the capabilities to to get there, then you are likely to fail
Ian Kingstone 24:55
That's not just like, well, we were going to set up a training plan. For the IT system, this is the whole training needs analysis, training type, PS build
Jonathan Parnaby 25:06
skills, capabilities, matrix and all that.
Ian Kingstone 25:08
Another area in my mind, I mean, most of these aren't always given the time of day. But another area that to me is so close to the people side of things that really get helps people understand, you know where they need to go.
Jonathan Parnaby 25:22
And then yeah, Episode Seven will be kind of talking about business readiness. Yep. Which is a great another great subject, because it's so broad. And this is right. And it depends on the type of projects or programme that you're running, of what does has readiness mean,
Ian Kingstone 25:38
while also I've seen this on some of the bigger programmes I've done where he is, certainly, if you're doing more global type change, I noticed big programmes, but that is when does when, when the different parts of the organisation need to be ready, depending on the overall plan in the scheme of things. Yeah, you didn't know you don't need, they don't necessarily need to know just yet, you want to take them on the journey of time. So they do understand why this is happening and why it needs to get in the way it does
Jonathan Parnaby 26:05
And as you know, you always got finite resources. And it's always difficult to get everyone ready at the same time. So again, depending on your programme, phasing structure is what tranches of work you've got set up, obviously, all needs to be geared geared towards that. But yeah, great, great little subject that one asset is not alone, it's huge. And then kind of finalising the the season really Episode Eight is around kind of the business adoption, and realisation, which is something I strive for when I talk about change, because a lot of people talk about the efforts that you need to do upfront to prepare for it put the preparations in place, and also the effort you need to do to execute your change plans. What I see a lot of in in programmes and transformation is when the thing has been delivered. The go live, which is everyone gets excited about is how quickly those programmes and change teams can kind of dissipate. Yeah, and actually, that's the pivotal moment of driving value out of that business. Not just realising,
Ian Kingstone 27:11
realisation and adoption, but sustainability, right, that change. Yeah, I mean, okay, that changed my change again, in the future for the right reasons. But but that it's that sustainability, too, because you don't really truly drive the value. The work afterwards,
Jonathan Parnaby 27:27
you know, three months, six months, nine months after that go live to make sure that the change is sticking to reverting back to their old ways. How do you know if you're not got a handle on it? So again, another another great subject, but I think in the middle of that kind of run of episodes, I think we're gonna probably do another shallow on wide kind of conversation, aren't we?
Ian Kingstone 27:50
Yeah, I think that'd be good to kind of really integrate where those kind of areas, tap into the other elements of transformation, value, risk. I think we're also going to get into conversation accounts across the holiday leaves these episodes around agility, and how, you know, to support the change journey, but also, I think the change journey and the way it's built and of course those episodes also support some of the other areas around building capability within your organisation for future transformations.
Jonathan Parnaby 28:25
So for our listeners, then in what, what do we want, I suppose our listeners to get out of this season, by if they listen to, you know, all the all the episodes talking about OCM what we want them to get out?
Ian Kingstone 28:38
Well, I'd hoped they would get out of it. Our experiences in practical ways of doing change management going through each of those those areas we've talked about in each episode, and talking about what we've seen what we've done, and how that's been been done. And maybe some of the some of the challenges that we've come up against just so from that respect, but I would also hope that that along the way, we might get some engagement around some questions and some things that we know from from previous episodes that we can also then maybe pull into future episodes around that. But But overall, I think we're there. I would hope we've got the breadth and depth to cover the whole change management piece, as we've seen it within organisations that would be support for anybody who already does these things or, or wants to do these programmes initiative.
Jonathan Parnaby 29:34
No, no, I echo that. I think, for me, I kind of go back to that small and medium business, who maybe have not experienced in, in kind of handling OCM in a structured kind of formalised way. And I would love you know, some of our listeners were part of those kind of businesses not to exclude large businesses or anything like that. I think generally the smaller business may not have that experience. So be grate for them to kind of learn a bit more about how change can be done, what kind of activities are typically used in those situations, but equally, as you said, you know, we've got, you know, a lot of business term business transformation professionals that are out there in the community in general, and especially in the UK, who may be doing some of this stuff. And that's great. You know, we want to hear from you to kind of say, yeah, that works really well. Or actually, have you thought about approaching it in this way. Because let's face it, I'm not sitting here saying I'm the complete expert. And I know everything about change management, I can only talk about my experiences as we can talk about yours. Right. So we want to hear from, from those professionals who have gone through this and maybe got some scars of your own as well. Because I think that's quite important.
Ian Kingstone 30:47
Yeah, I also think that that we know, we started off this conversation today around where we've so many organisations, we've gone and helped them with their transformation programmes. And they've seen it very much IT. I'm hoping and and the changes within the technology front and process front, and not so much the changes around the people process and the side of things that come from organisational change management. I'm hoping that that by going through this in some depth with an approach and practical approach that we've certainly used over over a long period of time, that the why of using that approach will come out not just the how and the when but the why of why do organisational change management because that if you think about like, the first conversation we had today, today was around organisations who hadn't considered it or have considered we're paying lip service to it, or now they need to do it, but then don't really do it. Yeah. And I think we can get that why as well as the how and the what and the when we get that, why you need to do this across in some way in our episodes that might help either people who know they need to do it, but they're trying to sell that internally, or people who weren't quite sure, maybe, but the need to put all the effort in doing all of those things. Yeah. Because this is
all a lot of work. That
Yeah, definitely. But but the wins are, are clear,
Jonathan Parnaby 32:17
you get out what you put in. Yeah,
Ian Kingstone 32:18
exactly. So so I think I think for me, also, if we can try and bring out the why through this not in any specific way. But as we talk through it should become evident. And it should be quite obvious. I hope so. So that that for me is something I really want to get out there. So maybe we don't have so much. So many initiatives starting off not taking this as seriously as they need to be to part of the success of that initiative,
Unknown Speaker 32:44
I think to help with the hook as well, a new chapter so that we're going to kind of sit down and record is going to be kind of themed around the business problem. And some of those business problems, I think you'll be very familiar with, if you worked in business transformation, or even if you're part of an organisation. And if you've not, then maybe you will in the future. So yeah, we kind of want to tie them back to again, what is the challenge? What can we do to overcome that challenge? And like, say for that, why?
Ian Kingstone 33:12
Yeah, and everything we're talking about here is the kind of deemed good practice practical ways of going about things that we've learned in the last 10, 15, 20 years doing this stuff. So hopefully it's helpful.
Jonathan Parnaby 33:25
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the Beer and Butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation.
Ian Kingstone 33:32
Yeah, so you can contact us at the website https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk that's https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk. There you will find show notes on everything we've talked about in today's show, or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk
Jonathan Parnaby 33:53
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.