Ian & JP are back at the table to talk all about the blueprint of change management "The Change Frameworks". Our hosts catch-up to talk about the importance of Marvel in raising children, stealing the master chef title off your daughter, facing the biggest challenge yet "Repointing a limestone wall" and watching epic films virtually over Xbox with friends. They continue to explore the importance of setting out a framework for practically managing change within organisations and cover the various disciplines required.
Ian & JP are back at the table to talk all about the blueprint of change management "The Change Frameworks". Our hosts catch-up to talk about the importance of Marvel in raising children, stealing the master chef title off your daughter, facing the biggest challenge yet "Repointing a limestone wall" and watching epic films virtually over Xbox with friends. They continue to explore the importance of setting out a framework for practically managing change within organisations and cover the various disciplines required.
Ian Kingstone 0:00
Well what you having then Jonathan,
Jonathan Parnaby 0:05
Pint please mate
Ian Kingstone 0:06
Two pints please landlord
Jonathan Parnaby 0:08
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting then?
Ian Kingstone 0:11
Over there? sat at that table over there?
Jonathan Parnaby 0:13
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them.
Ian Kingstone 0:18
We're just gonna tell him it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:23
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there? Who have we got?
Ian Kingstone 0:27
is some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:33
Cool. Fantastic. Well, it's crack on lets get over there.
Ian Kingstone 0:35
Welcome to the Beer & Butterfly
Jonathan Parnaby 0:37
a podcast where we talk transformation.
Ian Kingstone 1:03
I'm Ian Kingstone.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:05
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby. 7
And we're your hosts.
Ian Kingstone 1:08
Today's episode, we don't know where to start with change management, isn't it all fluff? So we're going to take the organisational change management frameworks? And take that theory and look at it and how you use that in practice. Well, Jonathan, so what have you been up to since we last met?
Jonathan Parnaby 1:25
Yeah. What have I been up to? Good question. We are now when we sat down me and my son, who's five years old, very energetic father to son, father to son kind of moment. And we sat down and watched Avengers Infinity War and Avengers endgame, which is brilliant back to back. Okay. One day Yeah. And he sat and he just watched it all by which was a great little moment because he was asleep.
He could have been asleep.
I was having way too much fun. Yeah. But yeah, not even last year, we went to see the latest Star Wars film, just me and him and a nice little little moment of Father Son bonding and again, I was always worried because he usually wants to go and have a bathroom break midway for film most of the time,
Ian Kingstone 2:18
What about questions does he ask questions?
Jonathan Parnaby 2:19
No, he was locked in he was solidly locked into the film and I thought this was great I can actually do this a lot more with him. So yeah, we sat down yeah, we watched both of them just films and he just absolutely loved it.
Ian Kingstone 2:32
So did you by the sounds of things
Jonathan Parnaby 2:34
I could watch those films any day any day to be fair, so yeah, so I've been doing and doing a lot of that which has been nice. So the kids and then recently I've been kind of getting back into the old gaming front because obviously with the lockdown business we're not allowed to see people and let alone
Ian Kingstone 2:56
Can you do any of that, I suppose you can't do some of that online
Jonathan Parnaby 2:58
Yeah you can Yeah, we did a bit online but it's just not the same as if you're going to play kind of a board game kind of thing online. You might as well play Xbox or something. Yeah, because it's just better managed. But we did do a little bit it got to be a bit of a pain. So we're kind of put on the back burner. So I've missed that during during the lockdown period. And even though now we still can't get three four or five people because often different households, even just having, you know, two people to play something. Get socialising again it's been brilliant so I've enjoyed that
Ian Kingstone 3:32
Remember your old tactics
Jonathan Parnaby 3:34
They're still there, I still lose. I'm still not very good but I just like playing
Ian Kingstone 3:39
Yeah What about yourself and well really well on from from lockdown in lockdown I did a lot of I say cooking. I'm not a no master chef. right but but my daughter we started doing things like apple crumble and cauliflower cheese and just stuff like that. And so I've kept it going which has been quite good. And I probably will look at the expanding that a little bit maybe. So I've been doing that. Lots of little stuff. Nothing major, big still going out on the pushbike.
And doing you know just 20k a year and 20k there which is great for me and keeping me going nice and all of that and still got us a DIY going on little bits and bobs I've got one big job of gotta get to which is still not done so properly you're well done in the next one either.
Got to do me me lime cement wall do it properly. So that's that's gonna take a bit thinking about and learning. Yeah, but, but I'm kind of looking a bit more forward to that now think so. So that's it, but yeah, not. I've got no like major, major exciting news other than Yeah, tried my hand at the cooking and actually, even the wife says I'm not too bad at it. That's pretty good. So you know, you should bring some
Is my daughter's input? That's help.
Jonathan Parnaby 5:04
She's the master chef.
Ian Kingstone 5:05
No, she is Yeah, really. I'm just support and helper, I just wanted to put the scales out
Jonathan Parnaby 5:16
here caught up on any films or anything, and
Ian Kingstone 5:19
watched a lot of old films that you know, not old in older films, but films that have been out before. Yeah. rewatched a lot of stuff going on. So now that I've been through going back through Star Wars and all that stuff, yeah, I love that stuff.
It's similar to yourself. I did watch some Terminator recently, yeah, and what else? I've been watching the good question. I do like sci fi a lot. But I do also like comedy and, and stuff like that. So Daddy's home and one. Yeah, just just stuff that I've watched load 1000 times before for the love, it just keeps me kind of happy something to watch.
Jonathan Parnaby 6:07
I think one of the things that we did during lockdown on you know, I regularly have movie nights with a couple of mates. And you know, we just come around and watch films chill out, which is always quite nice. And we kind of go through some of those big classics like Terminator 2, Aliens, all that kind of stuff. And obviously since lockdown, kind of miss doing that. But we kind of found a way around it. So I'd like to hook up the Xbox headset, a friend of ours will be on their Xbox headset on. And then we'll kind of synchronise a film on Netflix or, or Amazon Prime or whatever. And we will have kind of a countdown it's like 3..2..1 go press press A we try and synchronised same time. So it feels like you're watching it with them. And actually strangely even though they're not physically there, because you can hear them and you can still talk through it. And not annoyingly just chipping in little bits. And yeah we actually watched a quite a good few films in that way as well. Just things I really enjoy watching Big Trouble in Little China, which is acient film night. But it was just so cheesy and random and I just loved it because it just reminded me being a kid, you know what, I'm still watching Predator, the original and even Predator 2 not so good. But there we go.
Yeah, just some of the old classic late 80s, early 90s action Arnie Schwarzenegger. students as well. Like the Running Man. Really watch that. Yeah. Honestly, man, don't get me neither. But it was just like, oh my god, I just really enjoy watching those old films We can talk about films all day, but we probably should move on.
Ian Kingstone 7:48
So this episode is really about frameworks, isn't it? And what is we talked a bit about what is organisational change management? This is more about, you know, frameworks, and perhaps what methods you might use? and so on and so forth.
Jonathan Parnaby 8:06
Right? Yeah, absolutely. It's about it's about the blueprint of change, in essence, and if you kind of bring it to a business problem that businesses might face is that when they're undertaking, transformation, or change is there, they're really really considering the probably the technical implementation of said change. And, and if they do that, if they are considering the kind of ocm side of it, it's, well, it's just I just communications, isn't it? You know, we just got to tell people what to do. And then everything will be fine.
Ian Kingstone 8:43
put out a comms plan and tell everybody what we're doing.
Jonathan Parnaby 8:45
Not even that, we'll do three comms, we'll do one, we've got a project that's doing this will tell them when testers are needed. And we'll tell them when it's live. Job done. Oh, yeah. We know that it's never going to work. And lots of people will be like, why is going on here? But now I think the general business problem is that it's fluffy.
Ian Kingstone 9:08
Do you think that's because that's all they know about maybe those types of organisations know about change management? Or do you think that's because they know those change frameworks, and then boom, it's all too much or or too fluffy?
Jonathan Parnaby 9:23
Yeah, or a mixture, probably mix probably mess. I think, you know, we've all heard of the Kotters Eight Steps and,
Ian Kingstone 9:33
I've got a story about that once I was going to a steering meeting for a big big programme, multiple millions of pounds programme and the CFO was on the back lot around that particular programme and how we were going to make sure it's been successful and all this and I put a nice little presentation together. around you know, and I mentioned Kotter in it, you know, which was which was the right thing to do and still stand by Kotter, and all of that stuff, but the way I'd mentioned it in this presentation that the steering was, was taken as well. Yeah, you can come in here and quote about a Kotter we all know Kotter. But what are we actually doing about it? Yeah. What what you give me something tangible? Yeah, yeah. And I had a grilling that session, which I could do some tangible stuff. But that's not the way I'd written the presentation.
Jonathan Parnaby 10:24
And I think a lot a lot of the executives and C-Suite are very used to these these names, and probably theoretical frameworks, because they always come up and leadership kind of courses and that kind of education. But I think just that point there is what are we going to do? What are we going to do? specifically? Yeah, is is the bit that is typically missing, and some, some organisations get it, and they get that there needs to be other work stream dedicated to people and change, that it's actually going to work on tangible activities that's going to deliver, you know, a series of value to the organisation alongside the technical infrastructure, process, change, all that kind of stuff.
But they're all organisations that just probably don't know, I'm aware of it. You probably aware that, you know, all of the change management and the Kubler Ross curve, and yet they probably get the principles of that from the theoretical perspective, but maybe they just don't understand Actually, there are quite practical things you can do.
Ian Kingstone 11:25
Or maybe they see it in a way. I mean, certainly when I was a services director, and we were putting solutions into organisations, and our responsibility to those organisations was the solution side of thing. Yeah, they would look at us as if we were supposed to tell them how they needed to change, which we could do from an understanding of the impact of the solution, what it needed. But we couldn't dictate to that organisation. That wasn't part of what we should be doing. We could suggest we could recommend, we could do the various things, but we couldn't. They needed to own the change, and to own the change and easy to understand the change, and to understand that they needed to put the methods within their process and delivery process. And when we were just part of that process. And I found that quite challenging a lot of the time was was getting the the end client so to speak, to take change management seriously. And not just see it as we're going to train us nearer, nearer.
You're going to train us, so we'll know what we're doing. And then we'll know how we got to change things. Yeah, right. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 12:30
So now for me, the change framework is the blueprint of how you're going to run, prepare and execute change management, work streams. So having the right resources in place, you know, putting the right kind of practical activities in place to run alongside in parallel with your programme of transformation. Okay, so when we talk about when we talk about this episode, we talked about frameworks. So we can talk about change frameworks. Yeah, we can maybe cite specific ones or do various things. What we're really saying is, yeah, we need to understand that theory. If you want to call it theory. We need to understand this frameworks out there.
Ian Kingstone 13:13
But it's around mapping out the practicalities, the tactical things we can do with those frameworks and how we use that theory that in the actual ways we're doing? And does that, you know, and how that happens. Yeah, yeah, that happens.
Jonathan Parnaby 13:29
Yeah. And I think, for me, I'm not wedded to this framework is better than that framework, that's better than this other framework. Because actually, if so, if an organisation is even thinking about a framework to use, then they're ahead, as they're thinking about using something to put into place in their programmes,
Ian Kingstone 13:49
It's a framework, right? It's not a framework methodology yet, it's just a skeleton to hang things off. If you want, that you can then drive through the necessary things you want. And the activities you might do to drive, I don't know, whatever it might be in that framework, communications, awareness, whatever it might be.
They might be different in one organisation to the next, the actual practical activities. But then we do have a lot of theory, you know, a lot of a lot of practical activities that come out of that framework, and we're going to talk about them later on in the series. But in the season, we're going to talk about, you know, things change impacts, well if people don't do the change impacts then how are we managing change, but but it's it's kind of like that is a practical way of then deciding how data driven which is a framework yourself.
Jonathan Parnaby 14:40
Yeah, completely completely. So I mean, have you got any examples of where you worked in those organisations where I've got exactly who it is fluffy, like, do we need to do change Ian? because it's sort of a bit of a fluffy early on many years ago? Yeah.
Ian Kingstone 14:58
Probably to a degree early on, I didn't save myself for a while. Yeah. And then and then, you know, as when I came from more of an IT time type implementation back
a long while ago, you know, you probably would address change, but it was more around training, maybe training needs analysis, maybe a comms, maybe a little bit of vision, but but not but but not the detail that I'm used to these days where you know, you would you would really understand the change, look at the impacts, look at how you're going to manage those are these changes I can make before a technical solution is delivered. These changes I've got to make with the technical solution, or as these changes I can only make after the technical solutions deliver those types of things, which I will talk about later on in future episodes. But also,
so so the biggest examples I can speak to more recently, is organization's know they need to do change, that they might go out to a consultancy, to say, Can you help us manage this change. And in some cases, it might be a niche consultancy. So in retail and not so distant past, you know, I've been working on some big programmes in retail, and they bought in a niche change or retail consultancy, that's helped do some of that change activity.
Knowing that they've got to build capability internally. Doesn't always work that way. But But and, you know, I've seen the example of where you bought in a consultancy, and probably done more, you could speak to an example, I know, you could that we both know quite well here of bringing in a consultancy, to do the change piece where it's not necessarily been delivered that well, in the sense of theory. Yeah, but practical change activities. Now. I mean, nobody want to speak to that.
Jonathan Parnaby 16:55
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that that example, was, I think my first foray into to change management, officially, when I took on my first change manager role. And very excited to kind of get, you know, stuck into that, I think we were working with a, you know, a very large consultancy partner, to help with this transformation enabled by implementing ERP. And they kind of paired off different kind of disciplines that like experts in different areas, and kind of paired us all off. So I had someone who's obviously specific to kind of go through the change to work with me. And they were there to kind of help offer expertise and guidance and stuff, which I thought at the time was great. Yeah. Do you want to help? Yes, please. Why not? Why would you not want to help.
But I very quickly realised that person, as lovely as they were just kind of come coming out of it from a textbook approach. This is kind of like the, you know, the ladybird book of change management. And this is kind of what we need to do from a theory.
Ian Kingstone 18:04
You've caught me thinking now is there a ladybird book?
Jonathan Parnaby 18:09
it was kind of like, yeah, we we need to kind of first make people aware, and we need to come to that and I was like, Well, yeah, kind of get that. But specifically, now, if we're going to model out what the next six months, nine months are going to look like, what? What are the tangible actions? What does my plan look like, for executing all the bits that we need to make the change management plan? So it's like, what is the plan for the plan? Yeah, I can never get it out of them. I can never quite wrestle the specifics, it was always kind of very ethereal, to the point where it's very frustrating to kind of work and it got to the point where I kind of just handled it myself, again, because end of the day, you know, I was in that role to perform that role. They were there to help. They weren't that helpful. There were in some cases, but not in the specific so I had to build my own.
Ian Kingstone 19:01
You say that, but I mean, I'm probably going in a little bit of tact here and talk about but but but
and, you know, I would go into an organisation consult, they need to do these things, but they need to do these things. Yeah. And it's that, that piece of ownership is that piece of so in that situation that sort of you might have brought some theories to you, maybe not that helpful in your eyes in the sense of the way they delivered some of those to you, but still somebody within the organisation and that happened to be your role to manage that yes, process, you know, needed to take ownership of it.
Unknown Speaker 19:36
Ian Kingstone 19:37
that's where looking at it. I don't know. I just I just think even now I go into organisations and help them with the change part as well as lots of other things. But but but but
I don't want to own it now. And I think if you own it, they're never going to build that capability. There's never going to build that, that they're never going to have the same engagement.
They're not gonna have the same ownership that I have the same want for it to happen. And I always remember back years and years ago to first time change management really, I got involved working for a big American paper company. And we were talking about change and how that worked. And I always remember just a simple thing that you always trust somebody you've worked with, for years, more than you do some consultant walking in the door. Yeah, they're this way. You know, why should I said, what you need to do is find the right blend of taking that experience from that if you haven't got that capability internally. How do you show me? Yeah, I'm gonna go with me Hold my hand here and approach with concerns.
Jonathan Parnaby 20:38
I think, you know, that you raise a good point is, whatever their approach was, and maybe it wasn't executed amazingly. Yeah. In all fairness, it what it did do is it basically made me take ownership quicker, maybe. So I kind of wrap my arms around it, I guess. I guess the other thing is how much they were charging you for do that.
Ian Kingstone 21:00
If it felt like they should have been doing it?
Unknown Speaker 21:01
Unknown Speaker 21:03
different ballgame. Well, yeah.
Ian Kingstone 21:07
You could, you could end up getting into that bracket. But yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 21:10
but I think he just made me kind of put my arms around it and and kind of build something from the ground up. And then of course, I owned it then now in the framework. And version one was, okay. Yeah. Few teething issues, you know, learning learning along the way, you know, applying the kind of agile approach of, you know, minimum viable product. Yes, we have something you've got to going, it got us moving
all the way up to the point where we had a way of capturing change impacts, which I won't delve too much into. But that enabled us to start getting data. So we could actually work out what is changing? What is the what is what do we need to manage? Now, those kinds of things. And I think along the way, I was to revise that framework, an two, three, maybe four times just to fine tune it tweak it,
Ian Kingstone 21:56
is that your own framework? Now you use, so to speak? Yes, we're going to talk through some of that as we go through these episodes.
Jonathan Parnaby 22:02
Absolutely. And like I say, I have kind of developed my own change management framework, which is his practical lead. But you know, I'm not sitting here preaching Now, that's a framework that work in every instance, doesn't matter what change, you ever do use this and nothing will go wrong. No, that's not what I say. If I could brand that up and badgethat up, I'd be a very rich man. But I kind of come at things at a logical way, you know, me, and I've, I've got a Business Analyst background. So you know, the logic is my ally, in pretty much everything I do. And I suppose that's probably maybe a rare career progression from coming to a BA into a change people kind of management side, because I kind of take that analytical approach, because I always want things to make sense. I want things to be as black and white as possible. But I appreciate in change management, there is a hell of a lot of grey. Yeah, I can't do it. Sometimes. We don't know how it's gonna look. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I just think that that is a good example of trying to make or trying to come up with a framework that's more practical led than theoretical.
And, and kind of getting to that point of ownership. So yeah,
Ian Kingstone 23:15
okay, good. So So, as we go through this, we're not going to be recommending lots of different frameworks we're going to be talking about what we're talking about today is the fact that you need to start have a framework, you might borrow a piece of its a bit, like I mean, turns into project management that, you know, I learned PRINCE many, many, many years ago. And, and, you know, there's some key things in PRINCE that have been always in every project that I've worked on. Yeah, business case issues, risks, management, those types of things, doesn't mean I'm following PRINCE to the tee. Now see what I mean, it doesn't mean that's what I'm getting to do.
And I think it's the same with changes what we're saying. I totally agree. And I think some of the bigger programmes I've worked on where I've had challenges with aligning mindsets, and people and change, I've had to put in some very practical ways almost created meetings around other things to get people working together than previously worked in silos. And, and those types of activities that need to be thought through and sometimes you even need a bit of a political intelligence within that organisation to do it, which is another reason why I feel that they might have people like you and I go and help organisations, there needs to be somebody owning it internally. Big time to see what I mean, because they might understand more about those litical intelligence that those the way whether that's always going to be that way. They've got some lay of the land.
Jonathan Parnaby 24:50
Yeah, this is a common misnomer with if you have a change team on board in your programme that you think thats okay, because it's their their responsibility to make sure change happens in an organisation. But actually, if you think about it, and we'll come on to this in the in the change network episode, because it's it runs hand in hand. Yeah. Who's accountable for making change happen in an organisation? You know? Yeah, it's not the change team. They're the enabler, things that make it kind of move forward that are not accountable for its people in the business.
Ian Kingstone 25:23
So that's, that's a great. That's what I was trying to say about the retail example. Yeah. Trying to explain earlier, the, the, the, this particular organisation knew they needed internal change managers, their managers, they're a big organisation, global organisation.
But they bought in a third party, because they just couldn't build that capability quick enough for the initiatives leading them. Sure, yeah. But the idea of bringing that large consultancy, third party to come help them was to, to help them build that framework and that capability internally. Yeah, as well as helping them do that by doing in the existing initiative, rather than throwing a load of theory at them and saying, Get on with it. There was a bit of, we're all in it together. Didn't work perfectly. But But you know, and you've got to be careful that it's easy then to if the consultancies got some hands on them to do to leave it for them to do Yeah. and expect them to do it. Because you get to the end of your programme, and you haven't built that capability. And there's another programme down the road or another project down the road. And the ownerships not in the right place anymore. Yeah. And the people on the ground who had made the changes happening to or with, feel like it's happening to them rather than with them, and so on. And, you know, whether it's their change, so So yeah, get it. Great. And we are going to talk about your dead right in the change network. And, and that whole whole piece.
Jonathan Parnaby 26:49
Yeah, cool. So I think probably was good to talk about our next then is kind of what an OCM framework should contain, in general terms. So yeah, not to not to speak about, you know, the Kotters steps and, you know, Lewins, on freeze freeze model, or anything else that I might have picked up ADKAR, I might have picked up in any change management practitioner course, that I may or may not have done in the past.
But generally, in my, in my head, in my kind of simplistic view of OCM, it's really, it's a discipline that helps take, you know, targeting stakeholders from around the business who are unaware of the impacts of change are going to happen, and to take them from that state of being unaware, to fully prepared and business ready to, to kind of enable that change, and release or realise value out of that change.
And then typically, you know, change framework should kind of look at two core aspects or two sides of a coin. So one side being around kind of change preparation, and the other side being around change execution. So talking about the change preparation pieces, this is kind of like understanding the why. So what's the vision of the change? Why are we changing all of those kind of strategic high level questions that are need to be answered? Or should be answered? But quite worrying and frightening, frightening enough that sometimes they're not answered in these programmes, but they should be? Because a lot of that kind of strategic level needs to be conveyed down to the business and organisation so they get why the changes even been instigated in the first place.
Ian Kingstone 28:28
What what I mean, I don't want to interrupt your flow, I know it's fine. But what what, what about, or maybe we come back to this, but I'll throw it out there. We can never talk to the keep going. But what about if people don't? So you can have a big one a big bold vision with a big why if you want, but further down the organisation, let's say yeah, to use those terms much. But But you know, I mean, further, as these changes trickle down to the people that actually impacts
I'm trying to think of the person that thinks, well, that's all great for the bottom line, or whatever it is, don't run out me or send me my jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, come back to that, because I want you to know, you're talking about being prepared and planning the change, and then we're gonna get into execution
Jonathan Parnaby 29:12
Exactly, so five in the preparation, but it's that vision piece is, you know, vastly important, because using the communications that you're going to do, that's what you're going to start to convey. And actually, as you kind of go through the the framework, you need to start to get targeted with that comms. And as you said, about, you know, what's in it for the the accounts payable clerk who sits in the office works nine to five versus what's in it for, you know, an operative, that's out on a site, or works four on four off shifts. And, you know, it's going to be very different impact and they're very different experience of change that needs to be considered. So I'm trying to say it's a blanket one size fits all never works.
So once you kind of got the vision established, you're then looking at understanding what those impacts of change are going to be. So it's really about like getting that data getting that kind of impact data collected. And kind of modelled in a way that you can now understand of all the different stakeholder groups that you've got in the business, wherever you want to cut that functionally, by location by whatever kind of makes sense, you can tell that story. So I know that that department is impacted in these ways. And then suddenly, you become the team that has the richest amount of information about what's going on. And typically, impact change. Impact collection is great when it's kind of run in parallel with some form of blueprinting design process, because you kind of in those conversations anyway, with the business. And it's great to kind of ask them those questions like, you know, what's that going to mean to your department, we want to process in this way versus that way. So you can kind of get all that real, real core and key information.
And then kind of following on from that to kind of finish the preparation pieces, then taking that impact assessment start to make you know, those those stakeholders, and you change the networks or where that's going to happen. So they're starting to start that communications journey. But also to kind of prepare the change plans, what are you going to do, what activities you're going to do that's going to support that impact of change, whether that's, you know, for making them aware, whether that's giving them capability, whether that's getting them business ready, whatever is then kind of pulling it all together. And we'll talk about that in future episodes, because, again, it's another meaty one. And then the other side of the coin, the change execution is then literally the plan of delivering something turned into delivery mode, and utilising the network change, utilising the programme team, anybody who's kind of got the knowledge and skills to do what they need to do, you know, running communications through different comms channels, whether that's creating new comms channels that never existed before, because you need to reach those certain stakeholder groups that, you know, are now impacted.
A great example of that what's more we had is the waste management company is that we have people who, you know, drive around in collections vehicles. Yeah, they're not in offices. So how to we get to them.
Ian Kingstone 32:14
Well, yeah. And also, how do we get the feedback when we're, when we're presenting these these execution delivery activities in what those changes here? And actually making those changes? And have we got it right?, what's the feedback? How was that feedback loop? So how do we know that it's now working? Or no, we're not there yet. Yeah, you know, are we mad? Yeah. And is this going to work? Or, you know, nevermind,
an element of pushback might get? And then how to overcome that? Do you need to put some more cons in? Do you need to put some more awareness in you only take people through the vision again, you know, what, what, what what activities do we need to do that we may have not planned? We need to do three times. But in this particular case, we do
Jonathan Parnaby 32:54
I come back to that the kind of agility base because yeah, I think it's very important with change management. And you see a lot of kind of community groups talk about it, in LinkedIn and various other places, so and, you know, change management and agile coming together hand in hand. And that I think, is a great thing, because actually, it just lends itself so well to it.
But moving on. Yeah. So awareness and engagement is kind of one of the strands of your execution,
education and training, as we talked about previously. Obviously, understanding what your skills gaps are plugging those skills gaps, building up capabilities in your team's
business readiness and prep. Yeah, so getting people ready. What does that mean?
Ian Kingstone 33:35
I've seen so many organisations not, not, not understand that it slide. I mean, sit and wait, wait for this to be done. But even early on, in my career, you know, when I was doing cut overs for certain systems, readiness to me was making sure we've maybe procured ahead of a certain cutover. And we're not gonna open purchase orders and things like that, because it's easier to manage the data and track and cutover process and things like that stock management and how to keep orders going while you've got baby systems across cutover. Now, what about the people? What about supporting them on their first day? Or what about supporting them on their third month? When? What about supporting them a month end? You haven't done a month end yet? Yeah. And given all this disappeared, after two weeks,
Jonathan Parnaby 34:18
what about, you know, hiring a new role that the organisation's never had before? Because they needed to help run the new process and getting them inducted and engaged and understand exactly what ways of working and so on, you're not gonna understand that until you understand those impacts, you see, so yeah, readiness, great, great and very important piece
and then the whole business adoption realisation which is like if you want to see those pound notes, coming in from your business case, then making sure that you know, the change team and programme doesn't run away a week after go live when hypercare support runs out.
And yeah, so I finally see the framework and encapsulate all of those aspects and I kind of provide guidance and structure to any change team, or any change management professional. So they kind of have a thing to follow with tangible deliverables and, you know, real actions that they can do.
But without constraining, say, you got to do A before B before C before D. And that's where the Agile thing comes through, and you hit the nail on the head, which is feedback, right? We talk about control rooms later in, in the season. But the whole feedback is so crucial. So make sure that your change plan that you've come up front, is it going to work and you know what it might experience nine times out of 10? You will have to change it. Yeah, I always liken it to a game of chess, right? It's a plan? Yeah, it's a living thing. Yeah, it will morph and you'll learn and you'll realise that some of the initiatives that you pull together just aren't going to cut it, just because the business is telling you and you've got to listen to them. And, and that's where empathy and all these kind of soft skills come into play. Right?
So yeah, it's I think, agile working agile working iteratively with your change plan, plan is, is key. Yeah, you do a bit, you test and learn, you change it, rinse, repeat around, but it's quite good to have an overarching idea of what you're trying to achieve, and sharing that with the business and working in the business. So they are accountable. So it's not, we've created the thing over here. And now we're just gonna launch it over to you to deliver this a joint process.
Ian Kingstone 36:28
Yeah, comes back to my original, many moons ago,
Unknown Speaker 36:33
working in the paper industry, and this Father, Son, and grandfather all work on it in the mail. And, you know, we're changing the way they're doing. They're still making paper, but we're changing the way that reel coming off is getting into stock where we can't know that we were using big systems to do that on global inventory and all the lovely stuff. And they've got to do certain steps in the better hearing from somebody who's been in that process was that on that change network? You know, one of those people who've been on those shifts for years is part of that change network? who's helping that? That those people go through that change?
Jonathan Parnaby 37:10
Yeah, and I remember sitting in front of those collection truck drivers, kind of set it straight to them and said, Look, you shouldn't listen to me, I'm a guy in a suit, with a tie on and a shirt. It works in the office. Right? You should listen to me. But what we want to do is work with you. So that you know whether it's John, Fred, whoever listen to him? Yeah. Because we can make it make sense for for, you know, one of your peers. Yeah, surely all makes sense to you right now. Like, yeah, of course it would. So yeah, it's, it's just about kind of working with people on all different levels. And I think that's what I love, love about change management is that you're working with C suite. And you're working with all levels in the organisation, it doesn't kind of matter where, because the change spreads everywhere gets to every nook and cranny of your organisation, especially on large scale transformations. Definitely.
Ian Kingstone 38:02
Cool. Yeah, thank you for that Jonathan, I didn't help you much there. But that's, that's good. And that so? So to summarise, will there is there is elements, as you've talked through today, that give you a change framework. There are many theories. There are many models out there frameworks and methods out there that you use in that framework, but an organisation is the general pieces of that framework to put together
to them really kind of manage that organisational change management workstream, if you want to call it that or part of the other programme,
Jonathan Parnaby 38:49
In your experience Ian, and when obviously you run many programmes in your career, how do you educate even the programme team or some of the members in that programme team around ocm? And it's importance because, like, like me, and I'm sure you found this is, like I say some people pay lip service to and even that can happen within the programme organisation. It does.
Ian Kingstone 39:15
No, it does. I've been on lots of programmes where I've got people in the team. Yeah, the senior people who've done this stuff before, but they're still not paying the right level of attention to supporting the change piece, if you want to call it that or put enough budget that way. Yeah, well, not just even that. Just helping, you know, driving, be part of the team. It seems like secondary. Now, you know, we can get the system ready, or whatever it is we're doing to this point. But if that bits not ready, we can't go with it. We've got to get these two things, things aligned. And that takes teamwork, right, that collaboration, if you want to call it that. It's a win win. And I've had people
On those teams who aren't there, who or who have a mindset, even a sponsor who've had a mindset of, let's just get it to that stage, and we'll push it through, we'll push it through. It just drives me up the wall that will push it through. As if it's like a strategy that's going to be successful.
Jonathan Parnaby 40:19
If it's like being WW1 pushing over the top
Ian Kingstone 40:22
What a minute, that's a train crash that is to me. Now, if we've all agreed we can now push it through. That's a different route through to see what he says different train crash is not a train crash. It's so so but yeah, my experience you got different people, when sometimes in my role has been having to try and get those people into that right place. Yeah, sometimes it's been challenging, and I've had to use other people. And again, this is, I suppose gained programme management here. But this is about using the right people in your organisation to get the other right people on the change journey to know they're going to do change in a programme to deliver it successfully. So as you would help an organisation get the stakeholders in the right place, do your stakeholder analysis on who's where, on that? seesaw. If you want to say around the change, sometimes you have to do that in the programme, because sometimes it's me You asked to try and get them there? Or sometimes it might be someone they trust and know, know for a long while, who gets there. But that's that's their kind of management.
Jonathan Parnaby 41:22
Yeah, I think, you know, even programme organisations when they're, like 40-50 people strong, you know, some of the large ones that we've done in the past, has its own kind of micro organism, it's its own political structure, it's, you know, kind of separate to the business, but it kind of works in a similar way that it's, you've got all these opposing views and viewpoints. And
Ian Kingstone 41:45
it's great if it's worked in the past that I've been in large organisations where you suggesting, and so we tried that before, and it didn't work. And so now it's in the contract again, yeah. When we can we learn why didn't work? can we can we understand? Why do we think it didn't work last time? And if not just a blase answer, can we understand? Because we've got to make it work this time. So really, we have to do it that way. But let's understand what didn't work and why. Yeah. And it's often because they did the people didn't put the right behind it to wanting to work that way. Do you see what I mean? So so? Yes, challenging? That's, that's, that's why this stuff's about people. Right? That's why organisational change management is so important. Yeah. You know, yeah. It's, it's not belittling the other areas of a programme, because, you know, these all these things are important, which is why, you know, business transformations is challenging.
Jonathan Parnaby 42:38
Now, most definitely, and I think educating those key members in the programme, you know, probably up front and before you go out to the wider business is critical, because, as we said, in the past, your change plans all need to fit and run in parallel with the rest of the programme. We'll work
Ian Kingstone 42:58
on practical activities to do that. Right. Yeah. I mean, I could then load and I'm sure you could, but but you know, if you've got somebody on the senior team, who's perhaps in the wrong mindset about that at the moment, or get them involved in another organisation, with someone appear in another organisation that's been through some things recently, just get them have a chat, or get them a coach or get them. I don't know if but this, why your practical strategies to get a stakeholder to to open the doors to allow them to be successful. So so you know, there is the we could. Every organisation like ourselves and a large Paper Company, global implementation, and I've sat in Maine, in a in a building in a meeting around kind of supply chain, really, but the reason was pulled together, because we knew we were going to make some major changes in that area. Yeah. And we had to get a few key senior people in now. Larger organisation starting to work together. Yeah. So as we started to bring them these changes and the things they were already working together. And that was an early readiness activity.
Jonathan Parnaby 44:12
Yeah, so important, so important. I've worked in those programmes where, as you say, the changes second fiddle to other things. And, you know, I remember that particular programme manager, as frustrating as it was to work with him who just treat it as Yeah, it's just comms and you know, when we need you, we'll we'll do a kind of world war one over the top moment when we need you
Ian Kingstone 44:37
a lot of people get shot. Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 44:41
Yeah, just it blows your mind. Sometimes the conversations you do, he does.
Ian Kingstone 44:45
You have to remember the then you have to look at, then that's just a capability, a mindset, challenge gap. That's the gap that needs to be resolved. And it's your job to make sure it gets resolved. Exactly. It comes down to To that a challenging as it might be, yeah, yeah, I'd love to be in a programme where everybody just got it, then you wouldn't need me right?
Jonathan Parnaby 45:19
So what are your thoughts then of how organisational change management supports benefits realisation which is a massive topic in itself. But
Ian Kingstone 45:29
I mean benefits and value management I kind of blended Yes, quite often. And, and I think the if you've done that kind of benefits mapping or value mapping or the front end in the business case, you kind of know where you're going to get changes, or where changes need to hang out, if you want to get into much more detail in design and all the other things we can programme when you get your real train true change impacts, and so on and so forth. So
Jonathan Parnaby 45:54
strategically, strategically, you've
Ian Kingstone 45:56
already started that at the front end, you've always should have said in your business case already, by doing those activities, how much change, you're expecting a very 10,000 feet view in time. You know, that's why you needed this level of change activity in your programme, whatever it is. So by the time you come to the tail end, in managing, you know, how are we realising that value is about making sure you've done all those activities to realise that value, but you've also got them engaged in the realisation of that value. Where relevant in some areas might be simply as a KPI is a simple indicator that says we've gone from this to that, you know, revenues out by or our costs are down by or whatever we've reduced stock by. And but but it's it's then when we haven't, we haven't finished guys, here. You see what I mean? We got to loop around and make that happen. And whatever we implemented still isn't working now. Do we need to change it? Is it not never going to work? Or do we just need to cut down and do it properly? Do it Do it? How are we expected to do it to drive out those right realisations. And it's the same with other if you want non tangible benefits or value. You know, I always look across a programme across three main pronges, customer centricity, you know, efficiencies, and employee, you know, helping the employee get their job done and that side of things, because you usually cover most things under those if you want pillars, and and I see a lot of value in when you've delivered something in a programme that the employees have a better life or a more meaningful work through what they're doing there. if you can do that programme,
Jonathan Parnaby 47:41
usually tackling the what's in it for them. And aren't you?
Ian Kingstone 47:44
Yeah, but if you're looking after employees, you're looking after your customers, right, yeah. So So I always look at customer employee, then efficiencies, which is not the way that most CFOs look, in this case. But though, you've got a Did you see what I mean? So that's just the way I kind of go about it. But but but I think, I think in to come back to your question, how do you the change piece, then help feed in and link into the benefits and realisation where you won't get the benefits realisation if you haven't done that changes, right. But if you've engaged those people, and they've taken ownership, they will help you demonstrate the realisation because they've been on the journey. They want to demonstrate it. They wanted it to work then and now they want to show is worked. Because there's nothing better than an organisation that can show its board that I've spent this much money, said I was going to give you these outcomes. And I've given you these outcomes all better. Yeah. Very few that.
Jonathan Parnaby 48:42
Yeah, shame. Massive shame, right? Yeah. I don't get why. But I think this because a lot of organisations always chasing the next big thing.
Ian Kingstone 48:50
Chasing the next big thing, right? You want to say we do it right over here? Yeah. Or what we did do right over here. And what we know we did right over here. So we know for next time. Yeah, but but that demonstrate that learning for the next business case? Because it's going to be easier to get that next business case through with that capability. And that learning. You know, I've seen so many business cases saying yeah, we'll do change management, then you get into the programme. And where is it? Well, we're not doing it. Yeah. lip service again, in some paper. Now he needs to be held to account. And that business case has to, you know, those outcomes, so I see it right the way through, but yeah, it starts at the beginning for me, starts in the business case. Yeah, we've got an idea of how much change is gonna see the mandate and it might we might be wrong about how much we've got a rough idea because we understand benefits mapping how we're going to get there, even a very high level value mapping however you want to
Jonathan Parnaby 49:48
know Great, thanks. So I think in a nutshell that so you know, at OCM framework is fundamental for your change management journey, because Is your blueprint to move you forward as a blueprint that's gonna kind of lay out how you're going to work is the blueprint that's going to help you educate other team members in your programme of what the change team is going to do. And where it feeds into hooks into that wider programme. And as you just said, it's, it's the blueprint that helps unlock value as an organisation.
Ian Kingstone 50:21
Why are we doing this? We want these outcomes.
And it's as simple as that and as complicated.
Jonathan Parnaby 50:30
So I think Yeah, you know, don't be afraid to experiment with the frameworks, you know, tape, by all means, take some of the theoretical models that are out there, but don't be afraid to, to kind of chop and change them if you you know, your organization's better than anyone else.
Ian Kingstone 50:43
Well, also, a lot of organisations have got small little initiatives that work really well. And they're proud of jump off the back of those. Yeah, when you get into these projects, and these programmes, look at how they've done that the people that were involved, how they got that moving, and some of its come from the ground nowhere you really build off that, you know, those successes, what works, and those failures, what doesn't work. Now, have organisations been in this or that we tried agile, that didn't work not doing that. Now. Wait, wait a minute, you tried out? What do you mean by agile? What is even your destination? Do you I mean, so so it's really getting to understand what people have, you know, so it is about that continuous capability, learning and development. And I wish we didn't have to spend so much time on that change piece because it was built in. But that's not the case, you know,
Jonathan Parnaby 51:40
often than not, no.
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the Beer and Butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation.
Ian Kingstone 51:51
Yeah, so you can contact us at the website https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk that's https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk. There, you'll find show notes on anything we've talked about in today's show, or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk
Jonathan Parnaby 52:12
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.
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