Ian & JP grab a pint and relax whilst explaining how change plans get created and how you design activities which will tackle the various change impacts captured before. It's important to understand that everyone's impact to change is different and therefore requires a tailored change approach to fully meet their needs. Our hosts finally catch up towards the end of the episode and getting suspenseful with Line of Duty, watching the latest Peter Jackson film and wishing they hadn't and getting back into music from Steve Vai
Ian Kingstone 0:00
Well, what you having then Jonathan,
Jonathan Parnaby 0:05
Pint please mate
Ian Kingstone 0:06
Two pints please landlord
Jonathan Parnaby 0:08
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting then?
Ian Kingstone 0:10
there? Over there, sat at that table over there?
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,
We're just gonna tell him it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:23
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there? Who have you got
Ian Kingstone 0:27
some executives, some professionals? A few consultants.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:33
Cool, fantastic. Well, lets crack on lets get over there
Ian Kingstone 0:35
Welcome to the Beer and Butterfly
Jonathan Parnaby 0:37
A podcast where we talk transformation.
Ian Kingstone 1:03
I'm Ian Kingston.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:05
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.
Ian Kingstone 1:06
And we're your hosts.
In today's episode, we're going to talk about preparing for change execution, and ensuring that the impacts that have been discovered are taken care of through proactive activities.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:18
There are many business problems around change management, and in this particular episode, I've seen change planning being very generic. I've seen, you know, change plans just containing kind of the bare minimum. And you don't just tick box exercise more or less. I mean, so Ian have you kind of had that experience in the programmes and transformations that you've managed or been involved in? I mean, what's your experience around change planning?
Ian Kingstone 1:44
Well, certainly, certainly, the earlier part of my career, I've seen a lot of that, the latter part of my career, I haven't let it go that way. So I've been, you know, I've, I've interrupted it, and made sure that it's been planned properly. But what I saw a lot in my earlier career was, yeah, exactly changed, not really taken seriously. So and where it did seem to have, you're gonna have to, you know, we need to understand this change for the business here. And a lot of that in my experience was in IT projects, and programmes, but but they were all big changes in the environments they were in. But it was always treated like we needed comms plan, we need to just make sure that people know what's happening in the project. And when rather than what's happening to them specifically, or more or anything. So so the the the change management plan, if you want was a comms plan, a training plan over this stage, we're going to need to show them how to use the new software, or they need to know that they no longer need to do this. And to do that, but it wasn't she treated as a change, it was more of a training aspect. The first time I got introduced to anything, so I've seen loads of that, yeah, loads and loads of it the first time I got introduced to anything more than that was when it started to get into Yeah, systems training, and process training. So so that we then looked at the process changes. And so you started to have a plan around those. But again, very early on, that was around the changes in the process, the changes in the system, and how we train people rather than how does it impact stakeholder groups, etc, etc, etc, etc. So loads of experience of that, that early on, More recenlt I don't let it get to that stage. And you know, if I'm working on an assignment, there will be a need for proper changes that we're going to talk drop proper change planning, which I hope we can talk about today. Yes.
Jonathan Parnaby 3:45
It won't be a hope it will be reality.
Ian Kingstone 3:47
So I'd like you. I mean,
Jonathan Parnaby 3:48
yeah, very, very similar. To be honest, I think, you know, a lot of the early days, like yourself, it's it's just kind of focused around training mode, we were going to put a system in, and we need to train the users and then job done, right. Everyone's everyone's happy, everyone's great. And, yeah, it's not because you can train them. But usually what I find is that, you know, when they turn off their training, they're very confused about why they're in training. Yeah, because it's probably the first time they've actually heard that there's changes that are happening during the training session a week before you're going live. That's never a good, good experience to be in. And, and even if, you know the teams that are more advanced than that change, planning and change management, there might be a communications plan. But again, it's very generic. It's more like, this is what the project's done this week. To every stakeholder involved.
Ian Kingstone 4:45
You just reminded me of something that I saw a lot in in early days of ERP when the change wasn't planned in the way that I would expect to be done today, for example, and going back to the training piece, I would see people go to training and say, Oh, the system doesn't work the way it needs to. Yeah. That's, that's not going to work for us. And the first thing you think is, oh, have we missed something, whatever, no, what they don't understand is that their world is changing, it now needs to work a different way. It's not repeating what you had in the old system, or all the flaws of the old, it's the new processes. And that's because they don't understand the change, and therefore to come and do testing or training, they're not in the right place to do it, not because they're, they're not, they're not on that change journey.
Jonathan Parnaby 5:37
So what you're saying is, the system is absolutely fine. It's the way it's been designed to be because it's either usually following best practice processes. Yeah, like any ERP would normally do yeah. But it's the team that needs to change. And they haven't been informed that that needs to happen. Yeah, or have been wrong. That's not their fault.
It's, it's they don't yet understand what this programme is about, and what needs to happen in the project and where and what them what now the new world is going to look like for them. So therefore, they look at something and think, oh, the system is telling us to do it this way. Whereas if they understood the change properly, and we're engaged in that change properly, they would want it. Yes, they would want the system to do it the way that Yeah, one would hope because they would see the benefits of that. And yeah, there's always winners and losers in some of the change. But hopefully, they will see it for the right reasons.
Yeah, no, it's just an interesting topic, you know, and I've spoken to kind of many programme managers along the way, you know, some good, some not so great. And some just kind of, you know, in their overall programme plans that have a change section, but it's just literally communications every fortnight and that's it, and then some of the good ones, they you know, they're like the break the change plan to a separate plan, although I've incorporated but it's fully, you know, managed by by change teams, where you've got kind of all the aspects of change execution in there, you know, the kind of comms and awareness, engagement pieces, the education training pieces, the business readiness pieces, and, and even my old favourite the kind of realisation of the benefits piece of when you've gone live, you're still going to be around the help, that kind of stuff.
Ian Kingstone 7:15
But with that done, so you clearly change check through important though, and how you, which we'll talk about I'm sure in a minute how we derive that plan, that set of plans or planning. But but that's what turns the change programme into, they're doing it with us, yes, rather than it's being done to them.
Jonathan Parnaby 7:37
But also turns turns the change programme into a more outcome focused rather than output focus, which our programme should never be, as we know, yeah. Because it doesn't stop when you go live, it doesn't stop when you drop the new system and doesn't stop when you change the building that you want to work in and work now working in a different building. You know, it carries on after that, that kind of pivotal moment, because, as we said, in previous episodes, how can you be, you know, how can you ensure that adoption is happening? How can you ensure that the, you know, the end users and impacted stakeholders on you know, reverting to how they used to
Ian Kingstone 8:14
sustaining the change?
Jonathan Parnaby 8:15
Yes. Because it's the comfort blanket is what they know, it's the easiest thing to do path of least resistance and all that isn't that, but yeah, no, it's a, it's interesting, lots of lots of kind of changes in in the plans and, and lots of kind of different experiences, both to answer your ultimate question at the beginning.
Ian Kingstone 8:33
Okay, so we've done some change impacts we have, we've talked about that in the last episode. Yeah. So how did you get from change impacts to plans? And what what was the, you know, how do we take those and how do we get to change journey. What what what, how do you go about that normally,
Jonathan Parnaby 8:54
yeah, so generally what I'd normally do and many people might think you kind of got the impacts and then let's go and build a plan straightaway and off we go. I quite like to do a kind of an interim step in between the two and that's not because of you know, things to take longer. It's because I like to do the due diligence to make sure that the impacted stakeholders are going to be taken care of in in a proactive way not not in a hitman kinda way but
Ian Kingstone 9:23
too many movies.
Jonathan Parnaby 9:24
Exactly. like to say that, that make sure that they're kind of taken care of, and that every stakeholder group has the right activities in place to help them essentially to get to that place as you said, to make them want the change or understand the change so that they can actually they're bought into bought into it. Yeah, completely. So I kind of do the interim step where and I call them change journeys. And it's all around focusing on the what you're going to do not when so I kind of park the when, because share drooling when things are going to happen is hard enough, you know, the job on it's own anyway. So let's just park that for the moment just focus on the wall. So I kind of look at the impacts, I kind of look at each impact that I've got and kind of make notes on. Okay, what can I do for aware awareness engagement? For that impact? What could I do for education and training? What can I do for readiness, business readiness? What can I do for realisation by also look at the impacts, as we said in the last episode of kind of when you need to deal with them, which? And an hour said, park the wind? Yeah, this is more holistic of this learning
Ian Kingstone 10:34
to happen between other things,
Jonathan Parnaby 10:36
but yeah, other things, but also does this need to happen before the change is implemented? This needs to happen during post diagnosis stuff doesn't matter. Yeah. And so I can kind of look at prioritising how we're going to deal with it. So yeah, so I look at the change execution kind of pillars. And just to kind of remind everyone, from my view, the kind of four pillars that I like to use is like
pillar one is awareness and engagement, which is all around if, you know, it's a bit Ronseal. A lot of this is, you know, but it is all around, how do you make stakeholders or the business teams, individuals are aware that there is a change, you have to make them aware that there's a change to go through? And that, you know, what, what are the things that they need to know in order to go through that change curve? So let's go through the other end. And engagement, as it says, What are the things you're going to do to physically meet with these stakeholders or virtually now? to help them help that two way process of questions and answers and feedback? and all those kinds of things? How are we going to make that happen?
pillar two is all around education and training. So how do we ensure that they have the capability to change? How do we educate those impacted people, so they can actually do what they need to do in the new world. So education is kind of linked into the engagement piece, because it's, it's then in them understanding the why and kind of how things are going to be done in the new world. But then the training is kind of solidifying that. So that we actually do know, what they need to do, what buttons to press, what, where to park their car, in the new building, and all that then everything in between, essentially. So they said the basic, they're fully prepared.
The third pillar is business readiness, and preparation, which are all the things that the teams or functions need to get ready to basically prepare for that change to happen. So I kind of liken it to, you know, the teams organised structurally so that they can run those new processes that you've designed from day one. Yeah. Or, you know, have they got the certain administration or data captured in a certain way. So that can be, you know, lifted and shifted into a new solution and those kinds of things.
And so yeah, so the the the fourth and kind of final pillar is all around the kind of realisation as we said earlier, so the realisation of support.
Ian Kingstone 13:06
So, so just trying to kind of think that through and thinking about the change impacts, yeah. And that we captured, you know, we talked about that in the last episode, but it just got me thinking a bit about the types of things that we talked about the types of things that change impact would be a little bit time. Yeah, that's probably some kind of get my head around the context of this a lot. When you're planning a change project, you know, certain things can change, let's say, we're going to move the when, the processes in one departno longer going to do those processes, let's say they're going to be done by somebody else. Yes. Whether they be within the company or externally, or, or whatever. So when you look at the impact on that stakeholder group, and you've captured, these processes are no longer going to be done. It's no effective. You've done all your change impacts you talked about last time, when you start put that journey together. I mean, that change of moving those processes, is that an impact? Because the change itself creates an impact, right? So the change itself is we're going to move these processes out of this stakeholder group for the impact for this particular stakeholder group, that might be an impact on Well, the impact for this particular stakeholder group is you're no longer doing that.
Jonathan Parnaby 14:24
Yeah, your volume of work in this particular process is going to drop away because the process no longer exists for you.
Ian Kingstone 14:31
So in your change planning, going back to what we've just been talking about, you would look at that. And you might need to deal with Well, what does that mean, to that part of the organisation where they may have new work coming from somewhere else? Yeah, they might be restructured, although
Jonathan Parnaby 14:48
They might not
Ian Kingstone 14:49
that might be restructured. They might not need so you know, it's difficult subject I know, but it's changing happens. Yeah. So do Do you capture that in these
Jonathan Parnaby 15:02
completely? Yeah. So the four pillars are kind of like against the execution generically across your change plan? Well, I then like to see if you think of them as rows going across the table. Yeah, but you got, you know, awareness and engagement, education, training, business readiness, this kind of business adoption or benefits realisation? So are the kind of the four rows that go across the columns of your table. Yeah. Are the stakeholder groups? Yeah. So, you know, first column could be reception team. second column could be, you know, your accounts payable to third column could be, whoever. And ideally, you will have size all these up anyway. So you kind of know that, you know, stakeholder group, one is two people, stakeholder group, two is like 500, people, etc, etc. So you kind of have this big table of stakeholder groups running across the top and columns. And then you kind of got these these rows of execution, kind of pillars going across all the stakeholder groups to see if there
Ian Kingstone 16:03
was a situation there. I'm trying to make I'm trying to put this into a context. Yeah, and explain it.
Jonathan Parnaby 16:08
See wish I could draw it
Ian Kingstone 16:12
So if the if the realisation is those processes now removed from those individuals, yeah, that's in that realisation. Part of that change journey.
Jonathan Parnaby 16:21
That's where you see is in business readiness and part and realisation part. Yeah. Because in order for the change to happen,
Ian Kingstone 16:30
that matrix work,
Jonathan Parnaby 16:31
yeah, you're going to move those set of processes out of Team A, and put them into Team B. Yeah, well, first, in know that that column of that stakeholder group, they need to be told, they need to know that they're going to lose these processes. And then you're going to get into all sorts of questions of what's going to happen to my role, are we get more work from somewhere else? And and this is where, like, you mentioned in the previous episode, that some of these impacts may be HR organisational change impacts that you're going to need HR support for? Yeah. So in that example, you probably would, because people's job wasn't gonna change, or teams are being made redundant, which is awful, but can happen. So yeah, so you kind of looking at each individual group, and you kind of going down the column, looking at Okay, what do we need to tell them? To make them aware? How are we going to engage them? And this is like, specifically, how are you going to do it? Are you going to meet with them in a meeting? Or you're going to put something on the intranet in some columns? Or are you going to drop them an email? And we might get somebody else doing? Yeah,
Ian Kingstone 17:35
is so and so going to hold a meeting with them or correct,
Jonathan Parnaby 17:37
or is that HR representative needs to prefer them in a formal way, whatever it is, all these things need to be kind of captured. And, and it's always, it's not ever, you know, it's not always a one to one relationship, right? You might have a bunch of stakeholder groups that all work in finance, but they're different teams or finance, you got accounts payable, accounts receivable, or credit control, etc. And actually, one engagement strategy, or one communication strategy could cover multiple stakeholder groups, because it makes sense Yeah, you might pull all the finance together and tell them what's going on. And that kind of ticks a lot of those boxes,
Ian Kingstone 18:10
hey, finance, we've got all of these changes happening over the next 18 months. I'm going to talk to you through them all at this stage, that might be one of your plan,
Jonathan Parnaby 18:17
that might be my initial opener. And then we have maybe team specific engagement sessions, where actually people aren't comfortable with asking the questions when there's 100 people in the room, maybe they're more comfortable when it's just within their team. And that's when you get the real feedback on what's going on, you know, not the nodding of Yes, the finance director is addressing us. And that's all great, but I liked what you said about before. Never made the assumption that change team is doing all of this, the change team is coordinating kind of what needs to happen. So as I said, there, it makes more sense that maybe the finance director
Ian Kingstone 18:54
doesn't have the initial facilitators orchestrator. Yeah. Rather than doers Yeah, and that wasn't terrible. But But yeah. But but it that they're planning. Yeah. Who and who's the best group? Who's the who's the right people doing?
Jonathan Parnaby 19:10
Empathy plays a massive part, right? Okay. Put yourself in that stakeholder group, put yourself in their shoes and think how would you want to be told if you're in that team?
Ian Kingstone 19:19
So this thinking this, this planning, this is the whole piece we've just discussed right the way through and come to I've tried to tried to bring it to life with some kind of example, probably a bad one. And that's what you would call a change journey as it was then put that journey together for that stakeholder group
Jonathan Parnaby 19:37
completely. So you've got a holistic journey from kind of beginning to end. And it's not, it's not a timeline. Things can happen in different sequences, but you've got you comfortable that the set of productive activities that you've designed and orchestrated will help tackle those impacts for that group. And that's the sense check you're always doing, you know, Just like when you're a business analyst, and you're, you're getting requirements, and then you get the system and you want to test it, and you test those requirements to make sure it fulfils its fit for purpose, right? It's the same principle. And just to kind of bring it to life, how would I do that specifically, in an ideal world, change team all around me, post it notes on the wall, very interactive, you know, working out where things should go. And sense checking and kind of when you've got, you know, your change journeys pull together, you can then kind of visualise them in many different ways. You can literally kind of pull together a slide of, of your accounts payable team and tell them what you're planning to do. And I don't mean, tell them specifically, but this kind of links Interchange networks, right. And I want to go down that route.
Ian Kingstone 20:48
I was just about to say that no, it's funny, you say that, because I was much exactly where I was going with this conversation for a future episode. So but but do you bring the business into that conversation? Or is it just a change team at this point
No, business into it? Because if I was the finance director of this change that you mentioned earlier, around moving processes around, it didn't say finance, but I've made it finance, then, you know, as the ambassador of that change, as the owner, ultimate, you know, accountable person of that change. You'd want to know, kind of how we're going to do you know how we're going to go about it, but also to get them involved in it. Right?
Yeah, well, they might have some great ideas, what they know their department, they know they're working,
Jonathan Parnaby 21:32
the communications channel that you've just not thought of, and the finance director goes, Well, why don't you come in to our fortnightly coffee sessions or breakfast sessions that we run with the team? And do a pitch there, we'll do something here? Or why don't you know, that just talk to the business, get them teed up. And hopefully, with the change impact assessments that we were talking about last episode, you've been doing that because they now know what the impacts are. And now you're coming to them with ideas and solutions of how you're going to help them. And if I was those directors or senior executives it would be like fantastic. We've got some people that are helping us see all this stuff together.
Ian Kingstone 22:09
So you're shaping a plan. Yeah, this is why this has become useful. Right? You know, he's now shaping a plan is that is it? So you know, you talked about the what?
Jonathan Parnaby 22:19
Yeah. What are you going to
Ian Kingstone 22:21
do the next step? Me as a project manager, you want to grab that now and stick it in to a shedule of events. And he might move them around. But I'd want you to start is that the next step is is a useful tool,
Jonathan Parnaby 22:34
generally, once you kind of go consensus that the what is going to cover what you need to do, there's going to be satisfactory. And as we say that that from what we know, today, this is this doesn't obviously include the ongoing feedback that you're going to get from a change network, it doesn't include the the gotchas that might creep out, because maybe the change Impact Assessment might have missed a few things. But it gets you a starting position, right, it gets you off the ground and gets you moving. And I think sometimes that, you know, is needed just to get the stone rolling downhill, right? So yeah, then you kind of look at the when, when can you then do all this stuff? Like, have you got all the resources in place that typical project management kind of things? Yeah. Because you might be great on paper, looking all the change journey, say we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that we're gonna have coffee mornings, we're gonna do that. Yeah. Until you then look at the efforts and resources available to do these things. And this is where the change networks, is so useful because you need that coalition need that army to help you, right? Because if you think about just the change team of four people, we've got to do all this work is impossible.
Ian Kingstone 23:47
But I think that's the other reason why it's really useful to get the business involved. It's what I found, when I've been done this stuff, and when I put it onto a plan is sometimes it's so well, actually, you know, we've got other other parts of the change other parts of the journey, if you want, that have got certain time based activities, finance is actually a very good one. We need to get these changes done before year end, before year end ending starts because we've got a lot of work to do in year end. So So or whatever. So usually driven to an ideal day. Yeah, if not fixed to one that is one of the better ones drop dead date time thing. I've always found that that that is where you have to then be quite clever with Well, how are we going to get all that done in that time? Yeah. And sometimes communicating a message can take longer than one session. Yes. So planning in a session to say we're going to tell but communicate, communicate, communicate, and you can't accept that everybody might get it first go No, or whatever, you've got a plan. So and that's difficult to judge and that so to that whole planning piece. I guess there's a bit of an art to it.
Jonathan Parnaby 25:02
There's a bit of an art. And I think, like I said before, you've got a stake in the ground and you start. Yeah. And except that, you know, things are gonna change, accept and be flexible enough that you can change with it. And it's not this rigid plan that I'll know where a day late on that communications. And, and yeah, the whole thing then just suddenly cascades and falls apart. Is, is making sure that you know, you're, you're kind of ticking these things off. And and you can run it in an agile way, if you want to depends on it depends on if you want to parallel it with the like the delivery framework that
Ian Kingstone 25:39
also pitches into the readiness activity. You do you measure when you're ready? You know, I will talk about that later in another episode. But that pitches into it, doesn't it? So you'll know whether you're good? You can you can mark that as done. Yeah. Definition of done in the plan. You know what that is? And you can measure that out as well. Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 25:59
So now though, the when is, is very important gets you off the ground. And also there makes it real, because now you've sort of committed yourselves and you know, your change network, to start delivering activities, and then you kind of get into, you know, if kind of project management, but I always find it's a bit softer than that. But once you've kind of got the web, you have a plan, you agree your plan, make sure that people sign up to it, you know, is realistic, all those usual things? Yeah. And, you know, if you're working in a programme, and you're a change team part of that, then it's ensuring that everything aligns, you know, you know, understand the business calendar, or you said month end year end but also take advantage of those kind of corporate communication channels that are available there. And yeah, just kind of structure and phrase it in.
Ian Kingstone 26:51
Okay, that's, so that's how we get to the change plan from change impacts, change journeys, breaking them down, matrix them a bit, have a look at, you know, the stakeholder groups engaged with the business in, in that journey thinking, cover across the different dimensions, and then start looking at the when, and then starting to map out and plan that out.
Jonathan Parnaby 27:13
Yeah, and then you're in the essentially, you kind of change preparation stage is kind of over, I say over. So it's about prep, more preparation you can do but the bulk of the impacts that you've got our current
Ian Kingstone 27:27
I guess that depends on the project programme, or whether it's phased whether you've broken that down into three phases. Have you done all the design that we've completed design for the whole piece, or
Jonathan Parnaby 27:37
the initial membership, or you transition into execution, you're literally now into doing the things that you set out to do. And in the future episodes, we're going to kind of look at those four pillars. And then we're going to do an episode on each of those pillars to kind of explore them in and give them the airtime that they deserve rreally because yeah, they're very important in their own way.
Ian Kingstone 27:57
Yeah, but then the continuous activity that Yeah, okay. Good. Well, so, apart from change, planning,
Jonathan Parnaby 28:09
Ian Kingstone 28:10
What have you been doing lately? Oh, wow.
Jonathan Parnaby 28:13
Generally? Generally, I've been Yeah, I've been quite busy actually. Generally got myself kind of another contract. So that's been keeping me very busy these days. But last, that's been pretty fantastic.
Ian Kingstone 28:28
And what about home and, yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 28:31
home, I've been catching up with some kind of Telly really, I've been watching Line of Duty, which I'm not really up to date on whatsoever. I think we just finished season three. And I just got really into it. I find it really fascinating.
Ian Kingstone 28:48
I haven't watched it. I've watched bits of it when it's been on the telly but but my my wife and my son are both different places because they're watching the series just through Yeah, different places. And they're definitely not telling each other where they're where they are, but they're loving it.
Jonathan Parnaby 29:03
Yeah, absolutely loving it. Yeah. Is it's just really gripping. Like I didn't think it would be right I'm quite, I like overproduced stuff on Netflix and you know all these kind of sci fi fantasy, all that kind of stuff. Love it. But there's something simple about it, but the way it's done is very gripping. Like oh my god, what's going on?
Ian Kingstone 29:24
to the next one. See? Yeah, so it leads you through to the next what's gonna happen? twists and turns. Oh, man.
Jonathan Parnaby 29:30
Absolutely. But yeah, film wise. Why have I watched film? I'm trying to think I've watched Oh, god what was it
I watched mortal engines mare that was a bit. Yeah, no. No, it was one of these like Peter Jackson directed I thought give it a go. No, this is this is not great. I'm trying to think what what
Ian Kingstone 29:55
are you thinking?
What have you done
I've been I've been backtracking a little bit. So I've finally signed up to Disney
Jonathan Parnaby 30:02
of Disney+ Yeah. And
Ian Kingstone 30:04
and so I've been going back through all the Star Wars stuff. Yeah, all the Marvel stuff. Amazing and watched it again and again. I still I still love Thor Ragnarok I think it's just as brilliant as this. One of the best films I really I don't know why it's wacky. It's wacky. It's funny. Yeah, I just I just really enjoyed that. So I haven't really watched anything new. Repeat, repeat, repeat, but I've been watching and there's a lot there right. There's a lot of movies in that stack alone to watch but really enjoyed doing that. I've been getting back into a bit of music and the sense of I don't there's a rock or metal guitarist Steve Vai who I used to listen to a lot when I was younger I mentioned before I play guitar and stuff but through lockdown he released a letter YouTube he did a lot of he did two sets series is if you want of his own kind of video blogs, okay. And then one of them he wrote a song Yeah. and stuff. So that's that one's about playing guitar and technique. And but he had a series alongside that in lockdown, where he also just talked about all the other stuff that goes on around being a professional musician and travelling and all that stuff. And each one's about now two hours long. Then I speak video blogs I've been watching those even though they were ages ago. Live I've been watching them working way through them and and yeah, I've really enjoyed that. And it kind of got me back into my music of when I was younger. Because I was kind of thinking about that. So I really enjoyed that. So I've been backtracking
Jonathan Parnaby 31:42
retro all the way Yeah, just kind of going back. But no of you. Because obviously we're in this this pub right the Beer and Butterfly where we frequent this establishment many times. Have you had any kind of new drinks? So the sampled any new alchol beverages
Ian Kingstone 32:02
No from up i've stayed pure on beer. Well, actually, there's a beer I really like. And it's very rock related Trooper beer.
Jonathan Parnaby 32:13
Oh, Iron Maiden
Ian Kingstone 32:14
Yeah, I really like it.
Jonathan Parnaby 32:16
What is it like an IPAs? or,
Ian Kingstone 32:18
yeah, it's kind of but it's it's quite it's quite a medium curve. Kind of beer. But I tried it ages ago because of the name and where it come from. And I used to love Iron Maiden. Yes. I still do. But But no, I stopped drinking it. And then I started seeing it in places and things. Actually, that's alrght I like that. And I've been buying it and buying it and you know, Doombar and things like that. I've been I've been drinking drinking that tend to stay to beers. Otter
Jonathan Parnaby 32:46
Ian Kingstone 32:47
it Yeah. So So. Yeah. When I have been drinking, that's what I've been drinking. Not really been on there. Anything else to be honest with you?
Jonathan Parnaby 32:55
I've got no class in that regard. I out. You know, I don't really do IPAs. I must know. I kind of dabble every now and then. But yeah, I'm kind of a Moretti man all the way. That's as extravagant as I get. But now I am saying that when I went out to Portland in Maine, yeah, I was on a contract out there and spent a lot of time in Portland actually. It's fantastic little place. I say little it's a city but it's quite a small enough that you canplay again.
Ian Kingstone 33:28
Maine's is massive. Yeah, I'd spent three hours driving through maine once. Yeah, go on.
Jonathan Parnaby 33:33
Okay. Yeah. And, obviously, you know, all the kind of IPAs that they've they've got out there. Shipyard i think is the one that's brewed there. So a lot of the pubs that you kind of go in obviously after a hard day's work.
Ian Kingstone 33:44
They're slightly different. Their beers different.
Jonathan Parnaby 33:46
Yeah, it's different. That's That's why it tastes different. It's alighter, lighter. Yeah, it's definitely lighter and different kind of flavours, obviously. But I kind of don't mind that
Ian Kingstone 33:57
there are a lot of micro breweries and those types of things where we would tend to have more European bigger breweries. Yeah, doing that type of thing. I'm must admit. I didn't try much over there. When I was over there. I was over there a long while ago. Then I was up in Maine. 2000 Rumford in Maine, okay. Basically, it was a small town that was run by a paper mill. And yeah, so
Jonathan Parnaby 34:25
there's a fantastic little place that a Mexican like a upmarket Mexican restaurant in Portland, Maine. And I'll tell you why they're there. guacamole and tortilla chips.
It's the best
Ian Kingstone 34:39
it's a long way to go.
Jonathan Parnaby 34:41
Ian Kingstone 34:42
Jonathan Parnaby 34:45
I don't know what they do to the quac, But yeah, it's great. I get to see spoonfuls of this stuff. And yeah, I still love going there
Ian Kingstone 34:54
Making me hungry
Jonathan Parnaby 34:55
Sorry, mate. Yeah, there we go.
Ian Kingstone 34:58
What's the next episode about that?
Jonathan Parnaby 35:00
So we kind of alluded to it throughout this episode, and we were gonna talk about the elusive change networks. And I say how you can kind of identify them how you go about kind of seeing who you need, how you build them, what kind of strategies for, for doing that the pains that come through them in doing that. And then yeah, how you kind of keep engaging with those networks continuously throughout the lifecycle of your programme or transformation.
Ian Kingstone 35:32
And this is something that that I've always put change people in into my programmes, but I think was working with yourself in the waste management company where we actually created a hierarchical kind of change network if you want. And I've not done that before, I'd always had what I call change agents. Yes. Which were the same thing, but we'll talk about that in the next episode. Yeah, it's some interesting concept over the years that have come from that.
Jonathan Parnaby 35:58
Yeah, great. stuff.
Ian Kingstone 36:00
Till next time
Jonathan Parnaby 36:10
It's question time, we've got another question in the auto mailbag slash, inbox, slash, you know, whatever they call it. This one's from Scott Robertson, Scott Robertson. And he's asked, Can you quantify the business case for putting organisational change management in the programme high cost versus benefit? How do you justify it?,
Ian Kingstone 36:35
okay? I don't always justify on its own in cost benefit, to be fair, as I say, we couldn't, but I would normally put the justification for OCM in a, in a business case, around the whole reason for doing the change in the business case. So whatever it is, you know, if we're going to drive it, just like you might put the cost of software, the cost of consultancy, you know, I would put the cost of having good change management, I would bucket it out, I would share what the cost is. But I wouldn't individually bring that out as a cost benefit purely on the change management, I would put it as a cost benefit on the overall ROI of the project, for example, that's how I would normally go about saying that, in most business cases, I justify why the change management is required. And usually do that with some kind of heat map or change impact type, process diagram or whatever. So I would normally look across the organisation where it was some business analysts say, Well, where do we feel this the most change is going to be in the organisation? And how disruptive is that change? So we can demonstrate the amount of change that is likely and therefore justify the requirement for change management. So it's more of a softer business case requirement for Change Management if if you need to justify it. But I do it through some kind of heat maps and kind of process maps and kind of changing of the process or something like that. That's how I normally go about it. I'm not any anything different from that, Jonathan.
Jonathan Parnaby 38:21
not not not massively, I think. Yeah, I think probably the reason why the question was asked, I'm assuming, is, I think ocm is a line in the business case, that probably gets questioned a lot, and maybe get stripped down a lot, especially if there's a, you know, significant cost of time.
And, yeah, I think it's just the case of justifying the need for for OCM has really been, you know, talking throughout this season, you know, we it's an important part of transformation. So now, yeah, I think, again, answer the question mate.
Ian Kingstone 38:56
Yeah, I mean, the other thing to add to that actually is I come at it from many angles. If you can get a value map or devalue dependency map, in your business case, around your benefits, which they do, because they want to look at financial numbers more than more than often. You can demonstrate your value map, the changes that need to happen to drive that that value. So if you can demonstrate those changes, and again, put some significance around them, it usually helps sell the case of why you need good strong ocm.
Jonathan Parnaby 39:27
Yeah, interweaves. It isn't a kind of says you can't have X without doing a, b and c,
Ian Kingstone 39:34
because it's often just an understanding, in the sense of, I don't think people do really think I'll change management, you know, isn't really gonna help if you know what I mean. So why we put loads of people on it or cost on it or whatever. I think it's more about understanding the level and amount of change and it's not just communications, and so use your business case to educate what change management is. And where it's happening. And then in respect that kind of helps justify. But yeah, I mean, you it, it's part of the cost of doing a date, a proper transformation. And you know, you put away that up against the success of driving out the benefits. So put it in that value mapping, and demonstrate that there's a lot of change, it's got to go on in order to drive the value. So if you're not doing change management, how is that change going to happen? Well, it's not right. So, you know, I wouldn't like to break it out on its own cost benefit ROI. Because I don't think that's the right thing to do. That's, you know, you could try and do the same as in like project management, and it wouldn't drive the right outcomes. We still need that, but very few people would say they don't need project management. Do you see what I mean? So it's, it's in that same kind of bucket in that respect for me.
Jonathan Parnaby 41:02
Yeah, that makes complete sense. And I suppose I'll just round it off and say, you know, if anyone in the audience wants to ask us any other questions, then you can find more details at the end of the show. So yeah, keep keep them coming in. These are really good.
Ian Kingstone 41:15
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Thank you, Scott.
Jonathan Parnaby 41:19
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the beer and butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation.
Ian Kingstone 41:26
Yeah, so you can contact us at the website https://beerandbutterfly.co.uk that's https://beerandbutterfly.co.uk. There, you'll find show notes on anything we've talked about in today's show, or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's https://beerandbutterfly.co.uk.
Jonathan Parnaby 41:47
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.