Ian & JP sit at their favourite table within the Beer & Butterfly to chat through the importance of change networks within transformation. Our hosts initially catch up with each other and talk about converting cancelled holidays (crying into their beer) into day trips. Ian has been back tracking and binging Casey Neistat youtube videos and re-learning creative skills whilst JP is dreaming of becoming an astronomer in his back garden. They continue to explore how change networks really build that coalition for change and run through what a change network is, what the common roles are and how to build trust with the business.
Ian Kingstone 0:03
What you having then Jonathan,
Jonathan Parnaby 0:05
pint please mate
Ian Kingstone 0:06
two pints, please landlord.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:08
So Ian where's our audience sitting then
Ian Kingstone 0:10
there? Over there? sat at that table over there?
Jonathan Parnaby 0:13
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them?
Ian Kingstone 0:18
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:23
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there? Who have we got
Ian Kingstone 0:27
some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:33
Cool, fantastic. Well, lets crack on, lets get over there
Ian Kingstone 0:35
Welcome to the Beer and Butterfly
Jonathan Parnaby 0:37
A podcast where we talk transformation.
In today's episode, we're going to talk about identifying, building and engaging a coalition for change. So Ian what have you been up to mate
Ian Kingstone 1:15
Not a great deal. Different than, than I'm normally up to, actually, it's been quite quiet. Obviously, I'm going on holiday this this summer, because of plans got changed. So So and we've done a few day trips and things but but nothing, nothing major, really, as a family. But from a personal point of view. I've still backtracking actually, on a retro, I've not been movies, but in YouTube. So so I've been Casey Neistat, and things like that. So I used to watch a lot of his YouTube videos when he when he was really going. He's calmed down a lot. Now he's moved to California and so on. But but but I've start up backtrack through a few of those because he's remembering the first I think in the first episode we talked about, I had this want for video, and things like that. And when I was younger, I used to like making and that's what got me into films. Well, Casey's filmmaker. Yeah, even though he does YouTube, he's a filmmaker. And so I think what probably got back into it was there was a film recently, and I can't remember the name of it, but he's in he. So he did a blog on that. And then I started going backtracking through his video blog, you know, his video where the air and side just bingeing on Casey Neistat, from years ago, of YouTube's, which I've really enjoyed, actually. And it's got me thinking, you know, again, about video and the way he does it. And I think it's quite exciting in the way you put music together. And then the other thing I've been doing then is I subscribe to a creative kind of channel, think remember that I was creative. And I've always had photography and always made taking pictures. But I subscribe to this Creative Live, which is like loads of training, from a how to make podcasts, how to do photography, to how to do fine art, to lighting, all sorts, that I subscribe to it on a kind of a year pass, and I've not used it enough. So I thought, Well, now that we can start using that, and got back into just working through the basics of photography, and just start I haven't really done that much photography. But I've been watching and reminding myself and looking at which again is then you know, got me the only downside of that in the past three weeks, at least all we had is rain. Yeah. It's not been the greatest, Brightest Day for photography. I mean, quite often I get the camera out when I'm on holiday, and I've been on holiday. Yeah. So so. So I've been watching it rather than doing it. But that's what I've been up to.
Jonathan Parnaby 3:51
That sounds cool. Yeah, it's good. It's good to kind of go back, isn't it and kind of reacquaint yourself with those skills that you've your want to progress and you've not really given the time for or not had the chance to do you know,
Ian Kingstone 4:05
I actually think though, you look at them in through a different lens later. So I always think that you might have learned something you might have forgotten it. Yeah. But then when you come back and relearn it, you might look at it from slightly different viewpoint probably because you've aged Yeah, exactly. So so there's any harm in it when I feel like you're wasting time which I didn't any of those kind of activities. But you know,
Jonathan Parnaby 4:31
you know what, I've always had a kind of inkling to do and I've never kind of done it is astronomy, right? And actually get myself you know, a telescope telescope one of those like fancy ones that you can go there not cheap get all those fancy ones that are like track or
Ian Kingstone 4:52
Jonathan Parnaby 4:53
moves along. And and yeah, and kind of just look up at the night sky was is always seems a bit romantic. Doesn't Are you sitting out looking at the stars and looking at the planets, but I think the reality is that you're on your own very cold outside.
Ian Kingstone 5:08
three in the morning. Cloudy Really?
Jonathan Parnaby 5:12
Ian Kingstone 5:14
The streetlights ruined that.
Jonathan Parnaby 5:16
Yeah, the light pollution can't see anything but there we go. But yeah, there's always a little bit of anything
Ian Kingstone 5:24
to do that. Yeah, I'm trying to think of anybody I know does it but I don't know. Yeah. So what have you been doing?
Jonathan Parnaby 5:31
Yeah, no, I've had a busy busy weekend actually, we've just like you holidays cancelled, like everybody in the world. So we're not going to sit and be too depressed about it. But yeah, so because we should literally be on holiday right now. We decided to kind of have like a mini break with the kids and a couple of friends of ours as well and their kids. The kind of books some days out, kind of like staycation kind of thing and yeah, we did a day at Legoland and which is great. And they got to do a lot of things. But obviously it's very busy. So holidays and
hopefully social distant, mostly these masks are
different. You know, it was very..
Ian Kingstone 6:19
good thing about Legoland that is they do that. I think why haven't they done this for supermarkets or for the clothes shops? You know, they do this priority for what they call it. You check in you can queue jump?
Jonathan Parnaby 6:30
Yes at times.
Ian Kingstone 6:31
What's it called? on last call, man? Yeah, it's like fast track. So you have a little buzzer you book here. I want to go on this ride at 12 o'clock. Yeah. And then you literally walk past the big queue because you got to pay more for it. Yeah. But why are they doing that with? You know, every time I go past a store the moment there's people with masks on queueing down the road? Why aren't they doing that? If they do it Legoland Miss they works wicked.
Jonathan Parnaby 6:59
Yeah, yes, we did that for the day. And then we kind of stayed over and went to Thorpe Park because it's literally like 25 minutes away from from Windsor. And so yeah, we did that was kind of more for the adults.
Ian Kingstone 7:09
Yeah, I was gonna say, kids stay there
Jonathan Parnaby 7:13
Watch your dad go around on this mental rollercoaster. So yes, we kind of did that. And then, yeah, we kind of come home and chilled and then we kind of spent Sunday go around this place called Bear Trail. And it's basically you think of an assault course that's outside. And it's muddy as hell. And you literally you wear your oldest pair of trainers, your oldest trousers, t shirt or whatever. And you just go around this, this
Ian Kingstone 7:43
Jonathan Parnaby 7:43
as a family, and you're sliding down slides into a mud pit. The kids love that. They'd love to literally, they were covered
Ian Kingstone 7:51
presume it's quite safe.
Jonathan Parnaby 7:53
Yeah, absolutely safe and obviously socially distant as well. They had a good kind of regime in place. But yeah, just kind of go around scrambling on the nets in mud. And normally, I'll be like, Oh, my God, this is just everywhere. But you kind of get into it and you don't care. But yeah, once your covered in mud your covered in mud. You can't get any dirtier. So just go for it. So that's fun. Yeah, so very busy. family time.
Ian Kingstone 8:17
Yeah. Good. Yeah. Excellent. So probably, probably enjoying not going on holiday then because you've kind of done it. It was it was probably damn sight cheaper as well really
Jonathan Parnaby 8:26
a lot. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Ian Kingstone 8:28
Good. Well, so this episode today, we're going to get into networks change networks,
Jonathan Parnaby 8:34
we are Yeah, the the infamous change network. What does it actually mean? Because it's all it's a term and sort of them banded around. Right? If you speak to change professionals, you speak to, you know, programme teams, transformational professionals, and, you know, change network is a term that a lot of people I think would have heard of. But when you kind of dig on the scratch the surface of a change network ok, what is it then? And how do you build one? Identify one? And yeah, how do you get to a point where you've suddenly got one?
Ian Kingstone 9:07
And I think for me, and I think I said this probably in a previous episode, but but I used to look at change agents across the organisation. And think, well, where am I putting change into and where do we need people to help? Yeah, do that change. But when we talk about change network, and the thing that I think I grew on me, the waste management company, we were both at was, was building that network, and being more of a network, different different type, not just having a person, there's a change agent at that site. So I've got a change agent at that site and personal change agent at that site. So it was it was more than that. And there's a lot more to it, that I've now started using. Everywhere I go, Yeah, and I think, I think over the years, certainly through things like ERP and then other change type programmes I think you're right, I think the change network has become a bit more commonplace. But whether it's built and used well is a completely different thing. So every seems to understand that they need to change network. But that, you know, what does a good change network start from? How do you build one?
Jonathan Parnaby 10:18
What does good look like? Right? But you take it back to the business problem that's kind of surrounding this area is you've got a change team in the programme or transformation. And they can feel like they're on their own. And sometimes now I was in that place where God God there's only four of us how are we can actually do this, you know, knowing that we do need to change network in place, of course. But yeah, you can feel really up against it, when you're looking at those impacts. And you going through it with a fine tooth comb, and you pull them together, you know, you change plans and thinking, right, it's a lot of work here, and we're going to do that. And I think, yeah, that business problem is, if you're going to try and do on your own, you're going to fail, yeah, its clear and simple
Ian Kingstone 11:01
change is a team game.
Jonathan Parnaby 11:02
It's definitely team game. And, and, you know, I kind of liken it to a game of chess, that's the kind of analogy I kind of like to use where, you know, one side of the chessboard is, you know, the programme, or change team is trying to manage that change into the organisation. And on the other side of the chessboard, I don't like to use opponent because I think opponent sends the wrong message, but, but the other side is the business, who are just gonna do what they do. And the reason why I use that analogy is like, even when you put your change plan together, right? If you think about it, as a game of chess, you wouldn't have all of your moves laid out and think that you can execute all of your moves without any changes to those moves. Because it will depend on what your opponent in chess would do, I'm moving different pieces around, he will have to adapt your strategy accordingly. And you have to change and flex and
Ian Kingstone 11:57
you got different tools, you can do different things
Jonathan Parnaby 11:59
completely. And and it kind of relies on that, that kind of communication and not always verbal, but understanding the positioning of, of, you know, different people in the business and how they're reacting to certain situations. And, and then you'll be able to react to that. And like say, change planning is proactive, but you also need to be reactive, to understand what's happening. And that comes through feedback, right? So I think a lot of the times with business, the problems around change, have networks or not having a change network is, you know, you're, you've got a plan, you've pulled it together, great, you've done the analysis, fantastic. But your first step of making people aware, and that kind of changes change execution pillar is really tough, it's really difficult, because you don't, the director of that function has no idea that there's even an impact is coming. So you're gonna have to get over that hurdle. Before you can even talk to a driver on the ground, who, you know, who's going to be massively impacted by that change? Because you can't just, you know, culturally, politically in organisations, you got to know how to operate around those different hierarchies and levels. Right. And you got to know how to get access to people, and you got to do it. Right. You can't always undercut and go straight into people. And the senior teams are having no clue about what's going on.
Ian Kingstone 13:21
Yeah, because they can't reinforce your message or anything.
Jonathan Parnaby 13:23
Yeah, they will tell you to go away and that's polite.
Ian Kingstone 13:26
So So I mean, what we just talked about there and and, and she was a bit more to it, but what we just talked about there is there's there's the change network isn't just about having some change agents to support the change team and getting them out of work done that we've got in front of us. It's about how we move and change things and learn your chessboard was a great analogy, that you know, that there may be different as you go through delivering that change, new things will become apparent, and you might need to do things differently than you originally planned and it becomes becomes you need to work it. And that network needs to support that.
Jonathan Parnaby 14:06
Yes. Let's let's kind of rewind a little bit less kind of thing of what is a change network? Maybe we start there. Yeah. And we kind of cover you know, what, what I kind of classify, or why would define a change network to be but essentially, you know, it's an organisation that's going to support the change, that's, that's going to happen and, and also kind of help work with the the transformation programme to ensure that it's impacted. stakeholders, people, teams, individuals, know what's going on. Now. There's a plan there to support them and actively get involved to own those changes. And that last piece is so important, actively owning the change, not thinking it's the program's change, but it's their change to own and that mindset takes time sometimes.
Ian Kingstone 15:01
Yeah, sometimes it doesn't always. Which again says you need to get the right. people involved correct. To help with either changing that mindset, or they've already got that type of a mindset. Yeah. Yeah, I got it. So well, maybe we start by talking through some of those types of roles then in a change network and yeah, and how they kind of how they are? And the kind of things they do.
Jonathan Parnaby 15:31
Yeah, I think I was kind of liken this to a pyramid.
Ian Kingstone 15:35
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you're gonna say. I've seen it, we've used surprises, but explain it for those that are listen to the podcast,
Jonathan Parnaby 15:44
yeah, completely. So if you kind of imagine a pyramid, where the kind of tip of the pyramid, you basically got three layers, okay. And the tip of the pyramid is what I call Change Ambassadors. Okay. And I use that term, because an ambassador for change is ultimately you know, somebody who is accountable for it. Yeah, that top level, and these would be kind of director level executive level kind of people, again, always depends on the organisation always depends on the makeup of the hierarchy and size scale, everything, you know, you if you're applying this to a startup organisation, and you're applying it to a corporate entity, it's been around 150 years, then, you know, you know, usually who is the accountable person? And the reason why you have know is, if you look back at the change impacts, we talked about on a call a couple of episodes ago, is that your know what function would own that change?
Ian Kingstone 16:43
Where it belongs? Right where it should be? And yeah, kind of RACI for it.
Jonathan Parnaby 16:47
So that typically would be your ambassador. So they are ultimately accountable. Right? Yeah. Now i'll come back to them. Change champions
Ian Kingstone 16:55
in that mid middle tier, middle tier.
Jonathan Parnaby 16:57
Yeah. And generally, they are more champions and ambassadors, hence the pyramid. Right. But champions, I would say they're like, responsible party for making the change happens. So champions, I always like it when the ambassadors select those champions.
Ian Kingstone 17:12
Rather than you pick them me pick them. Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 17:14
Because then the ambassadors are then bought in to know that they need to do something they need to get either their senior management team or even empower individuals,
you say that, but I've had an occasion where they've just given me somebody who had a bit of time on their hands. Yeah, rather than the right person. But yeah, you can get
really busy, but we can't release Fred, because you know, he's so busy on this other project. And you're gonna have Dave instead.
Ian Kingstone 17:41
Great. Back to that ownership and understand the
Jonathan Parnaby 17:43
change. Absolutely. And you always want the best people on these things. Yeah, yeah. And the best people are always busy. Because that's the nature of the beast, but no change champion is is typically nominated and empowered by the ambassador to basically help with that change planning. So we talked about last episode, pulling the change plans together, preparing them looking at the what. And those champions are the ones that would be probably validating that plan and see if it makes sense. Yeah. Because you may question anything, because they're the right level
Ian Kingstone 18:13
There the doers aren't they? Yeah, there going to get it done
Jonathan Parnaby 18:16
Absolutely. And then the agents, the change agents typically would be handpicked by their champions. Yeah. So they're the bottom tier of this pyramid. And hence, there are more agents than there are champions, and the more champions than there are ambassadors, and agents can be anybody who would be a proactive force for change, to help champions and ambassadors deliver it.
Ian Kingstone 18:39
So whether that's somebody who's just maybe a rep, who's doing a toolbox talk on a change through to who every every time they have a certain session, they'll give an update, or might some kind of communication, right down to helping deliver the change
Jonathan Parnaby 18:59
completely. You know, so I always kind of like into those tiers. Now, how many of these should you have in an organisation? Well, the answer you can probably answer is depends on the impacts, right?
Ian Kingstone 19:09
Yeah. The scope size of what you're hitting where the impacts are, where most of the impacts hit, you know, if you've got a big changes going across, say, the whole organisation or changes going off, say, a division or department, you know, it just depends on on what you're looking at. And then where are all those change impacts? And what types of change are they?
Jonathan Parnaby 19:34
Yeah, and if you kind of imagine a kind of an organisation that has divisions across the UK, you know, you got a Scottish division, north, Southwest, southeast. You know, we had to change networks out in each region. Yeah, because they all have their own ambassadors, who will have their own champions all had their own agents. And it made sense in our organisation because they're very regional focused, right? So you don't always have to do it that way. But again, it's reading the organisation and knowing how their work. So would, would a change agent in the southeast be able to be kind of directed or kind of supported by a change champion in Scotland, if that never met that kind of thing, you
Ian Kingstone 20:19
No but you say that, and I know exactly what you're saying, but I've done it on a big programme is I've had those change networks and ambassadors you know, in place that might be in the original silos? Yes, if you want, yes. But that they start to think I've done it was just kind of bit more of a breakthrough strategy where, you know, this change is difficult to get through. So one area might be doing better at it, let's say yep, than another. That's good. For now. Now, you can then join those those up, you can say, well, these champions over here can show help these champions over here and how they did it now doesn't mean they then they've got the right answer for that other silo because it might be completely different type of what we just talked about, they're in a waste management company about different regions. We knew Scotland was completely different region, completely different way of working than what was going on in the southeast. But of England, but but we also know that the changes we were trying to make, to make them work in not totally the same, but some of them try and make them work in the same way. So you know, if one of those regions got there, in a good way, they don't need to share that across. Yeah. 100%. So yeah, I get what you're saying about it can be a big size, scale, wherever you want. But then you can later join it up. There's a thing that kata did later on called accelerate. Yes, yeah. Which is exactly like that a bit more agile way of doing things. But that's the kind of way that
Jonathan Parnaby 21:54
that was where they kind of thought two mode organisation wasn't it
Ian Kingstone 21:58
exactly yeah, yeah, one that's working,
Jonathan Parnaby 22:00
very hierarchy and one kind of startup mentality where you can kind of just get things done,
Ian Kingstone 22:05
you don't need to break them off. Yeah, you just need those different two modes go in Good book. Yeah, he's and I always think when I think of your change networks, yeah, I kind of see that. Not that hierarchical mode, but that other mode, and then how that then works on the organisation
Jonathan Parnaby 22:22
completely. I think you're right. So yeah, I think that's a really good point to bring up that this isn't all hierarchical and rigid and very, you know, not structured with, we're kind of wanting to put some form of structure around it. Because this can be quite nebulous, as a topic as an area change network. And this definition is very nebulous, anyway, but kind of putting some form of structure around, it helps to get it off the ground. But you're completely right, I think what you're talking about there is sharing best practices of one region against another, because maybe it's this process change from, you know, Team A, Team B, or, or maybe, you know, we were trying to standardise processes across all of these regions, and where Scotland's doing it fantastically, and the Southwest maybe isn't.
Ian Kingstone 23:06
So in that particular organisation we're talking about they were competitive across regions, not the change network know that the same operation is going to work. So if they find one's getting there quicker than the other, they want to get on board. Well, that changed network in that region is got a winner now. Yeah. Because they're getting them there quicker, or whatever,
Jonathan Parnaby 23:24
What levers to pull. And that's the kind of the point but yeah, so how many do you need? Do you need one for every support function? It just depends, look at your impacts, go back, work out your stakeholder groups in part two, then understand how you can build that network. Start with the ambassador. Okay? Always, because if you don't land you in trouble. And, and don't underestimate how much time you will invest in kind of getting the ambassador in the right place. So I wouldn't wait. Personally until all the change planning has been done to have a change plan, and then go and talk to the ambassador, I'd be doing that way back. As soon as I knew there's a bunch of impacts that impacted that function or area or region, whatever. I'd be wanting to book some time in with that director to make them aware. Yeah, that this is happening.
Ian Kingstone 24:21
And you talked about that experience earlier on in their podcasts about where you learn a lot from a particular example that
Jonathan Parnaby 24:27
Yeah, absolutely. And I think just, you know, getting getting the right pitch to the right person. So they understand and sometimes these directors, you don't know them until you go into that room, right? Because maybe you've not had the airtime with them. Because why would you and
Ian Kingstone 24:43
I've always looked at that though, because you can get quite worked up about that situation. You're going to go into room and show a director don't know, you don't know what they're like and your talking about changing their business. And you wonder what, but they're also probably sat there. I've always looked And thought, well, they're probably sat there thinking, I don't know what's expected of me. Or if I got to do I want this to work, but I don't know why I've got to do that they're going to tell me what they are, they're gonna expect me to answer everything, you know. So he said, it's a two way thing. And you get that relationships only going to build for through that network. And through that working. And that process, I suppose the other thing about maybe we're going to get to this, but the back to basics, real basics of people are going to trust people I've worked with for many years. Yeah, so if you're change network, whether which whatever level of the pyramid, if you want, are communicating with you about the changes that are going to happen in your area, you're going to have that trust, I mean, basic style is kind of one on one stuff, but we will forget it. So you really want that change network to be spread out, width and breadth and to be able to deal with that thing. Depending on the organisation. If your organisation is ever is in one building in one city, that's one thing, but in a lot of organisations we've worked in, we've worked in organisations where there's hundreds of sites, yes, with lots of different people. So again, your network size, scale and talk to individuals need to mirror geography a little bit, as well, but also mirror kind of working cultures and things. So I worked in a paper mill, and one of the quickest ways of, of getting for one of a better way of putting it some of the old boys. Yeah, across the change journey with some of the younger relative boys and girls, that we're doing the change to say, Come on, guys get with this, because this is our future. You know, we've got to change the way we were. You might be setting your way. Yeah, yeah, we'll help you. Exactly. And those are the people in your change network. Those to me, those are some of the change agents, some of them might be champion level, some who might be Ambassador level, but it's, it's about driving those.
Jonathan Parnaby 27:02
Yeah, those types of just as you were saying, Now, I was instantly transported back to a kind of regional conference for again, this waste management company, where we had to kind of present some of the changes that were happening in their area. And I'll never forget it, it was one of the impacts was around that collections drivers. And I remember standing up there, and I kind of said look, you know, the all these things are happening. And I said, I know what you're thinking, right? What do I know, some guy in the head office and with a suit on. What do I know about driving a collections truck? So the answer is nothing. I don't know anything about driving a collections truck. So why would they expect you to listen to me about what this means to you? And actually, I've kind of pitching it say, you shouldn't listen to me. But you should listen to, you know, Fred, whoever, I always struggle to think of names on the spot always go to Fred and Dave, for that.
Ian Kingstone 28:02
Very useful people
Jonathan Parnaby 28:04
But yeah, we shouldn't listen to those people. Right. And these people are actively, you know, kind of put their hands up as change agents, because they're going to get involved in it. you'd listen to your, your, your co worker over you will some guy in an office you've never met course you would, I would as well if I was a driver. And yeah,
Ian Kingstone 28:23
and I think I mean, I've done that. And I've gone on work shifts with different parts of an organisation change into just purely so I can understand the business a bit better, but not expecting, though, for me to be able to change message across. But it just shows, I'd still like to do things and affect areas that I don't have at least some insight into the kind of things that are going on that
Jonathan Parnaby 28:45
Shadowing is so important,
Ian Kingstone 28:47
that I think that I mean, that does help. But like you say, it's, and it's also the business, knowing that the business, the other people in the business want to change rather than being in that change network. They are saying, I want to change.
Jonathan Parnaby 29:04
I'm supporting this change. Yeah. Alright. And if this changes and gonna go well, or I didn't believe in it, then have a way of feeding back. Yeah. This is probably more important.
Ian Kingstone 29:18
As you've put in many plan we've talked about over the years voice of the business
Jonathan Parnaby 29:24
voice of the business. Yeah.
Ian Kingstone 29:26
Okay, so we talked through the roles, we talked through the networks. We've talked about a few examples. What else what else is in that? What else can we talk about when we talk about change networks, when we
Jonathan Parnaby 29:43
kind of touched upon the two way mechanism, feedback mechanism, right? So a change network is all one way it's not a one way relationship, okay? It's not. We've got this a bunch of people now we can just push work on to and happy days. They'll get it done for us. And then we'll just walk off and wait for The sunsett go in, and now
Ian Kingstone 30:03
they're going to come back with risks, issues. challenges. Getting that done, I tried this and it didn't work. Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 30:11
moans gripes, you know, and I call it a relationship, because that's what it is, right? It's, it's a two way mechanism for the programme, or transformation, to be able to help prepare that business for change, but also to have ear for the voice of the business back into the programme. So important, all the way through, because that's a temperature check that you're going to use. And we'll cover this later and business readiness, yeah. around how you know, some tools and tips that you can kind of do for that area. But so key, right, it's, you need that information, you need to know where things are going, Well, you need to know and things are going crap. And, and what I like to do is we call them control rooms, war rooms, whatever it is, and these are kind of the, the the key meetings or engagement structures that you can kind of put in when you change network on a regular basis. And what I like to do in these kinds of control rooms is have a representative that's going to be there like your business partner for for that change, particularly network. And if it's, if you've got one network, it's quite easy to administer. Yeah, as the example that we use, we have lots of different regions, different people, you know, it's quite hard for one person to do that. So you might need help. And your change team will programme to help be that business partner with those particular people
Ian Kingstone 31:35
You might have different control rooms in different areas.
Jonathan Parnaby 31:37
Absolutely. All at different times. Yeah, with different messages that you might need to give the different areas.
Ian Kingstone 31:42
There's that that could be anything from like a stand up type thing you would do in a small group through to, to what I mean, like you said, like our room region. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's gonna be that or it could be that be a section on on somebody's standard way they work already?
Jonathan Parnaby 31:58
Yeah. Well, it could be that you need a particular space up in the office,
Ian Kingstone 32:04
get the throw stuff on the walls, whiteboards, and you start tracking things and chasing things and, and really is kind of a, it depends, right? It was about a war room type. Yeah, environment.
Jonathan Parnaby 32:16
Yeah. And there isn't a prescribed you should do this. And the agenda should be this and the No, it's not like that. It's each need that way of feeding back. So if the regional kind of operations teams or departments or functions have their kind of mechanisms in place anyway, you might have made sense to jump on it, but then they might not want you to take over half the agenda. Yeah, you want something specific? Right. So So yeah, that was just a way of you presenting, this is where we are. Because, you know, you're going to get information from the programme about where things are. And generally, if you're putting any ERP, are we in, you know, still in blueprinting or design, are you coming up to testing? Do you need testers, you know, all the the programme needs and once I like to kind of funnel into this control room mechanism, so it's standard, because one of the things that I've learned in doing kind of change management is that the business get, and I'll swear, they'll get pissed off. When all the demands of a programme hit their regional function, from different sources and different areas, they get very annoyed, that it's not coordinated, it makes the programme look, unstructured, it makes it look like we don't know what you're doing. Because if you're the representative that's going to talk to that change ambassador and the team or change champions. And you, you don't understand that actually, you've had the testing team, email call, all throughout the last two weeks about needing testers, you're going to look like a bit of an idiot.
Ian Kingstone 33:47
Yeah, just not know, now I've actually done something very similar to what we're talking about here for a different reason, as well as using it as a kind of control room. I've done it to help with some of the change. Yeah, so I've put several people into a regular meeting, who were part of the change network. But they were also part of the problem in the sense of they weren't working together that well. Yeah. And the new world they needed to. So so you know, you get them in that room, you start working that change things, start getting them to work the problem together, they start working together a bit more. And so you know, forming, storming, yeah, exactly that user control room to not only control the change, that to help the change in itself, by the way you bring it together by how you bring it together and the way you bring it together. And and yeah, I've seen that. I saw that a lot. Actually in Rumford, Maine. Yes. We're talking about Maine the other day and yeah, seeing that with SAP where you need production and sales, and you know, production planning, and sales and operational planning. working a lot more closely when you put SAP in, for example, in the manufacturing environment, and this is long while ago now, but they weren't, yes. And so we brought them in as their people that had to help make the change happen. But we also got them working together.
Jonathan Parnaby 35:13
That's great. your creating relationships that didn't exist? Just through that mechanism alone? Because now I have to work together? Yeah. And, and then when they kind of exit that process, they've already known each other, they work with each other. They've they probably annoy each other along the way, we'll resolve that hopefully.
Ian Kingstone 35:30
Jonathan Parnaby 35:32
But I kind of get to the point that it's kind of like using the controller and as the official touchpoint. Between the programme and and it's why I say wider than the change team? That's part of the programme, right. But the touch between the programme and the business? Yeah. And that formerly, like the communications and needs, wants, desires, everything kind of gets channelled through. So it's just, it's structured. And then what you're asking of the kind of function, or the change network is just all laid out. So yeah, we kind of build those mechanism to the programme, because what happened before and this is a real example of I'm explaining is that it was chaos. Yeah. And I'll show up to a control room where it literally would get a lot of heated debate about how unstructured things were i'm putting that politely. Yeah, because it was a waste and recycling industry. Yeah. But yeah, no, so control rooms are good. They, they gave you the feedback. And obviously, you can feed that back into like the programme managers and stuff like that. And also up to sponsor level, this is kind of what's going on
Ian Kingstone 36:41
this. So that helps you go from being you know, how would you be proactive rather than just reactive? Yeah, both ways.
Jonathan Parnaby 36:49
Ian Kingstone 36:51
Jonathan Parnaby 36:52
Yeah. Change networks all good. Put some time in.
Ian Kingstone 37:04
Hi there Jonathan, we got another question is great and more questions coming in? So this one's from Richard Hensher. Change projects, which have, you know, an element of organisational design? What are our thoughts around cost savings versus revenue generation? So I think what he's asking here is, is, yeah, we got to change project, there's a lot of organisation design in it, is that design there for just pulling costs out of the organisation against, you know, versus generating more benefits, I guess, he mentioned to revenue generation, but I should have been there any type of financial type benefits?
Jonathan Parnaby 37:50
Yeah, I think I think in change management org design can typically lean on the cost saving side, it can usually mean now we need to strip costs out of department, we need to, you know, restructure people, and probably make redundancies and things like that, which obviously has a more of a negative connotation to the people, obviously, it's not to the, to the business, because that's the value we're trying to achieve. However, org design doesn't always have to be around stripping costs, it can also be about, you know, producing, revenue or value. And actually, it could be that, in order to unlock a capability in the organisation, we need to have the right skills and people to help us unlock that. And maybe, that we need to get that talent from elsewhere, from outside the business to help drive that value. And I always think that kind of both sides of the coin should be evaluated. And we shouldn't always default to strip cost. Because obviously, what that does to an organisation, it can also limit them for growth. And, and, yeah, and kind of moving forward later on after the change has happened. Whereas obviously, the latter, if you can kind of build a team up to kind of prove their worth to generate the, the additional value that's required, then that puts the organisation in a stronger position. But like most things, it just depends, doesn't it depends on what the objective is. There's no point getting people into the team when actually you're divesting a business. Or if the objective is to, you know, Sell a Business because, you know, investors got hold of it. And so it just, it really just depends. But I think hopefully what Richard is trying to ask is, let's not just focus on the, what's perceived to be the negative side of org design,
Ian Kingstone 39:40
I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a couple of thoughts on that. I mean, if you're doing proper transformations, and as we've discussed in, in, in, I think I answered the question, actually, in a previous episode, whenever I'm around, you know, that usually involves changing the operating model. And when you when you change the operating model that usually involves changing the capabilities or the skills required or where the skills are required. So, you know, and where the capabilities are required in the business. So, you know, part of the business might, where there's a lot of roles might need to change, because those roles are no longer required. Yet another part of the business might involve a new set of roles, a new set of skills, as you just mentioned, maybe bringing some new capabilities in, and that side of things. So I think it's, for me, it's knowing that that organisational design is done with real thought about the outcomes, and then managed in a way with real thought about the people. Yeah. So So how can we can we cross train and upskill any of the people with roles, you know, so that, that they that we might be moving cost out of a certain element of an operating model, but we're building capability in another area of our operating model? Is that where we can transfer that does it have to be new people, rather than, you know, take cost out of the business from an operating model perspective, and yet, you know, then we have to let people go, which does happen. And that's really about looking at how you upskill cross training people in that situation, as well as Yeah. But But the other side of it as well, often, which I think people forget, and again, it's just how well you manage that people change process is that in order for many organisations to survive, they've got to change their operating model. So they do have to do some restructuring of roles. Because they're not necessarily to take cost out of the business is more than sort of quite often, to line, yet alignment to the new way of working to be able to allow the business to compete in a marketplace. And that's been disrupted. So, you know, it's, it's, it's about finding the right balance. And to me, it's the way you deal with that as an organisation. And how do you think about that, and how that's managed, for people sense which organisations have to make money, that's why they're there. And if they don't, there will be a lot of cost cutting because people won't survive. So it's a race around really being quite sensible about that. And I've been made redundant three times. And usually, because I've been doing product project type roles, they're no longer needed. But there you go. You kind of need to kind of understand why that why that may need to happen, because the world changes and organisations change.
Jonathan Parnaby 42:37
Certainly does, we've both been on the end of that, so we we've experienced it, the managing the change, new experiences, and being on the receiving end of it as well. So I think it gives us a good perspective on on on this particular subject, anyway. Yeah. Really? Great. Thanks for that.
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the Beer and Butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation.
Ian Kingstone 43:01
Yeah, so you can contact us at the website https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk. So that's https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk. There, you'll find show notes on anything we've talked about in today's show or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's https://www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk
Jonathan Parnaby 43:23
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.