Beer & Butterfly

Season 1 - Episode 5: MID SEASON - Why we should talk about WHY?

March 24, 2021 Ian Kingstone & Jonathan (JP) Parnaby Season 1 Episode 5
Beer & Butterfly
Season 1 - Episode 5: MID SEASON - Why we should talk about WHY?
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

The full english breakfast has been ordered and Ian & JP meet again to take a break from diving deep into change management and discuss strategically around "Why we should talk about WHY?".   Our hosts begin by reflecting by switching from physical to virtual, becoming logistical experts by moving flights and hotels constantly and reflecting on the current routines of lockdown and lets face it, their dogs are benefiting from all of the walks.  They continue to discuss strategically around how value management plays an important part in setting up, running and closing transformations to ensure that the business gets what it needs from it's investment.

  • 00:00 - Intro
  • 01:15 - What have we been up to?
  • 04:45 - Remote working
  • 09:18 - Setting the scene for transformation
  • 11:57 - Getting senior stakeholders aligned
  • 21:29 - Plan to mature transformation capabilities
  • 25:04 - Mapping change and benefits
  • 27:55 - Managing change and value
  • 37:39 - Realisation and closing transformation
  • 41:35 - Continuous value delivery through increments
  • 49:59 - Last orders

Ian Kingstone  0:03  
What you having then Jonathan,

Jonathan Parnaby  0:05  
A pint please mate

Ian Kingstone  0:06  
two pints, please landlord

Jonathan Parnaby  0:08  
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting then

Ian Kingstone  0:11  
Over there? sat at that table over there? 

Jonathan Parnaby  0:13  
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're gonna tell them,

Ian Kingstone  0:18  
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:23  
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there? Who have you got

Ian Kingstone  0:27  
Some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:33  
Cool, fantastic. Well lets crack on, lets get over there.

Ian Kingstone  0:35  
Welcome to the Beer and Butterfly

Jonathan Parnaby  0:37  
a podcast where we talk transformation.

I'm Ian Kingston.

And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.

Ian Kingstone  1:06  
And we're your hosts. In today's mid season episode, we're going to talk about the strategic level of organisational change management. So, hi there Jonathan, it's been a while since we last recorded so so what we've been up to over that period? 

Jonathan Parnaby  1:20  
Yeah I think it's, I think it's really weird to kind of reflect, isn't it? So it's been a few months since we recorded our last episode. So now we're actually obviously in that lockdown situation again. And obviously, we're, we can recording virtually, so we've had to kind of change our approach, change our tactics in getting these episodes filled. But actually, you know, like most businesses, you know, we're trying to find ways around the restrictions, we're trying to find ways around the constraints to keep going. And this podcast is no different, I suppose. But you know, what we've been doing. Trying to go on holiday, and then not going on holiday is probably the main thing. moving, moving flights, moving hotels, keep bouncing them back back into 2021. And kind of hoping we can actually go somewhere. But yeah, generally, you're watching a lot of films with the kids. And yeah, just trying to spend a lot more time the family, I suppose. Because we don't really have a choice in that matter. But also, it's quite good to relish relish those moments, right. And make sure the kids are okay, but so yeah, no, I'll try struggling to think of one particular thing because it's been so long since we properly caught up.

Ian Kingstone  2:44  
Yeah, I mean, I think I think I was just thinking the same. We've been through quite a lot of check, change, really. And, and so it's quite interesting. When I look that I think routine routine for for me, trying to keep in some kind of routines been been quite important. All this this change. So So, you know, you're watching movies and doing the things like you just said you were doing or they can go on holiday. I think it's keeping in those routines as well. I've been doing, I've been trying to I've carried on watching movies, I've watched loads of old movies that that that not old, old movies, movies, I've watched lots of times before, but quite enjoyed watching them again. gone all the way through the Marvel stuff again. I know I'd keep going back to it though. And really quite enjoy it and my daughter enjoys it. So that's that's good as well. So it's and then we can get together and I've been watching trying to think now which ones I've seen quite a lot on Film Four actually Film Four have some quite good runs on some things which I've been been watching as well. Yeah, I don't think I can think of any new ones since the last time we spoke that I've thought or I've watched that I thought oh, that's that's great. You know, I don't think there's anything there. What else I've been doing I've been I've been trying to keep up with my cycling but but with the weather. I've probably got to be done. I'm certainly a fair weather cyclist. So so that's that's that's been a bit limited. But that's all good and managed to keep that kind of tied to keep that routine piece kind of going going for walks round around the village but regularly with it all anyway but but it's quite it's quite nice. So yeah and and doing work. 

Jonathan Parnaby  4:49  
With work. I started a you know, a new contract a couple of months ago. And and that was you know, pretty much his remote, full full time remote working And actually onboarding and a new organisation, being remote 100% so strange, you know, it's the fact that you've got to, you know, take your time in during the induction process. And I'm really invested in that, like, the first three weeks is that I felt like I was repeating myself on Teams calls forever. But it's so important to do.

Ian Kingstone  5:25  
Yeah, I think I think I think when I mean, I just says similar to yourself, I've started work and was kind of interviewed if you want for, for a role. And I've been doing a role and working with, you know, people that I've never met before, in person, but I've actually had some made an effort within, within teams to, to build kind of relationship. And I've been lucky, I think the people I've been working with, we found humour as well, which then makes you kind of bond and trust quite quite easily and had a bit of a laugh, while you know, not taking things too seriously, while we've been doing quite a serious piece of work if you want. So, that's, that's, I found that a perfectly good way of working and personally I know it's difficult for a lot of people but but personally for me, I have no problems with it whatsoever. And I was great. Quite in quite enjoy it, I think. I think there are workshops are the most challenging thing. And I know you've done some workshops. So so so Jonathan, if you had any kind of funny things happen while you've been in calls because you're at home, and and you know, kids and family and things going around and stuff. I mean, like in this call, I've already had to two lorries drive by, you know, people making a noise right outside the window and things like that. Have you had anything kind of humorous that might have happened?

Jonathan Parnaby  6:55  
Oh, yeah. Like, you know, kids wander in my my son is five. So he doesn't really appreciate that, you know, I'm on a, on a work call. And anyway, he does he just want us to get involved. So just wander in at a moment's notice. And yeah, just start saying hello, and then tries to take over the mouse and keyboard. Go away. So I having done a workshop. Actually, I was running a workshop for a fair few people. And I set up a MURAL board with, you know, doing all the kind of virtual whiteboard digital posters and the team were like, really quiet, getting involved in focused on that particular activity, I set them and that's the weird thing about doing these workshops sometimes is that they're really, really silent. They, because no one's thinking and typing, they're not really talking. And an in wonders, my son, and he goes "Hello". Everybody, that one's got a sense of humour, and no one's kind of like. Oh, my God, this is so not professional. I think we're all human. Right? And everyone appreciates. I think even more so now. everyone appreciates those little things, you know. And actually, on another workshop, one of the participants, the dog kept running in and she was apologising, said don't worry about it. So she having this tennis ball every now and then she just keeps throwing, throwing this ball for the dog was whilst being on this workshop, but it's fine. It's all good is everyone's got, everyone's got to kind of get through out in the in, you can't just isolate your entire family off. It just doesn't work. So you've got to kind of blend it together in a way that is quite funny and humorous. And so yeah, but yeah, you know, even to the point where, you know, people are blurring the backgrounds or changing their background effects. So we usually have like a check in every other day, and we'd always change the background to something funny and just basically turn up on the Team's call. And I think the one I had was, had the the two guys from Pulp Fiction stand up behind me. So John Travolta and Samuel L Jackson, just things like that, just to keep you entertained. So yeah, we do a lot of that. We also do work of course.

Ian Kingstone  9:14  
You can have a bit of fun along the way

Jonathan Parnaby  9:15  
 Yeah, absolutely. 

Ian Kingstone  9:17  

Jonathan Parnaby  9:17  
In today's episode, we want to kind of take a bit of a break, don't we, from the detail because I think we've been spending, you know, a fair amount of time, I'd say in the weeds, looking and exploring organisational change management and the various different aspects of that, which has been great because it's always a, you know, it's a passion of mine anyway, but I think it's important to, to kind of just step out of the weeds and get back in the helicopter again and kind of explore on that strategic level. We call it shallow and wide right? We call it a shallow and wide episode to, to kind of put ourselves in the shoes of an exec board or senior you know, Management kind of professional who's dealing with change? And what are the kind of common things that we should, you know, take out of that level. So I really want to devote this episode to, to those kinds of people, because we feel that actually, in our previous episodes, there probably be more for the consultant or more for the professional who's actually doing or managing the change directly within a programme. So, yes, it's something I've been wanting to do for a while.

Ian Kingstone  10:27  
Yeah, and it's interesting, because quite a lot of the challenges I find often come from setting the scene if you want, or, you know, developing the transformation or, or building the transformation, or, or you come into a programme that's partway through, and there's dis-alignment, or whatever, of the, of the general direction of the transformation and things like that. So I think those are areas, you know, you often find so there worthy of discussion over and above change management in its in itself, or how our feeds into it, if you want,

Jonathan Parnaby  11:03  
yeah, completely. And I think, you know, when we're looking at planning this episode, let's be completely upfront and transparent. We kind of got three kind of sections to the assembly, where we kind of want to explore a little bit. 

So the first section is what you said, building that transformation that bit, where you're you're trying to build what we're trying to do and put in the right resources and the right things in the right place. before you even starts. 

I think that's kind of section one, where we want to kind of explore that section two, is about then running that transformation. And what's important at that, at that level, 

and then kind of wrapping up the episode really on closing that transformation. So ensuring that change has happened. And again, focus on the strategic so I think if we start at the start mate start the beginning. And the end is the traditional approach. But we'll we'll get there. So I've got a question for you about obviously building that transformation, and is how do we get senior stakeholders or executives aligned on that importance of change in transformation? So what why is it important that we get those people involved?

Ian Kingstone  12:15  
I think I think leadership comes straight to my mind there is that, you know, right the way through any transformational change programme. leadership's key is having the right, having the right, ship aligned and unaided. How'd you get them aligned? So Well, first and foremost, they need to be aligned, or they need to agree on the vision and direction and the principles and objectives of what you're trying to transform. Because he came to lots of places, through our you know, these types of programmes where there's a lot of challenges and, and their leadership, then it becomes really important. And if they're not aligned, then they wouldn't lead necessarily in the right way to steer the ship, so to speak. Yeah, but how to get them aligned, I think there's a lot of work needs to be done at business case. And upfront really, or prior to business case that say, of why you're doing the transformation to align them, lots of senior stakeholders have a different view of what you mean by transformation. And they might understand what transformation is. And change is, you know, they might have a quite good understanding of what organisational changes, but then in their mind, their actual view of how that's going to happen within the organisation, or what elements are changing within the organisation and why and in which direction, they might have kind of set expectations, and quite often do that vary from from others. So So I think it's really important to bring those people together, and really try and align them through those. Understand what their expectations are, and try to align them in the sense of, you know, in different organisations, we've done things like key questions, what are our key questions that we need to understand about how the business is changing what's changing and where, and, and even before you've kind of got a plan, so to speak, you know, vision stage, you know, they've been bold, bold enough, and those kinds of conversations. So, so I think, I think it's the best way I've found is to bet stakeholder analysis helps but but to saying that he's getting them together, and getting to understand what their view is getting each of them to be able to speak independently and work with each other to understand what each other's view of that transformation is. And then they can shape it together if you can. Yeah, you can have a strong stakeholder that is leading things and the challenge I've seen in the past, in that case is if they don't work with their colleagues around them to get them aligned to this piece early on. And they can drive things forward not not really being aware that some of the other key stakeholders aren't, aren't in the same place, not intentionally. No, often, it's they've all got different, you know, important different Gen agendas, depending on what the transformation is part of the organisation. You've all got different agendas, because you need different agendas, because you're running a business, you know, so it's, it's, but it's also other stakeholders. So, you know, starting to align, if the transformation is a large one in an organisation quite often, if there's a board or ownership of the organisation, making sure they understand exactly why it's needed and what allow it's aligned to strategy or whatever. So I think, for me, how'd you get them aligned, I think you get them in a room, and you get them talking to each other. And you might need to bring in other external people to help steer some of their mindsets and behaviours, if you want to get them those early on as possible aligned. And you can use a business case to start to shape that you can use sessions to start to, to, you know, like I said, kind of key questions, sessions, key understanding, build a set of principles, and as well as objectives, think about principles and the principles of the programme. And so you'll start to work about how you're going to deal with things in certain ways. And early on talk about how you're going to govern things. And that sounds very programme management, but it's really important, because, yeah, in some of those sessions, you agree, really what the transformation is about and align them on them. And align who's doing what, a little bit even if it's early doors? Yes, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's

Jonathan Parnaby  16:51  
definitely I think, I think for me, we can take a lot of learnings from, you know, one of my favourite frameworks, which is MSP, which is for those that don't know is as managing successful programmes. So it's really a framework around programme management. And it's a good base for for a lot of transformational programmes. In the beginning, kind of couple of stages of MSP you've got like, identify programme and defining a programme. And those are often the stages that are overlooked and missed, to people on organisations, I've seen jump into just basically managing the programme without and doing that, that kind of prior prior stages, and then that really commits to setting up what the vision statements are. And also, how is this programme and transformation going to be organised? and structured? Who's in that organisation? Who's, who's responsible for what and then they kind of put it all together? But yeah, for me visions key is the bit we don't spend enough time on in general. And as you say, again, I'm in the room and really understanding where we're heading, where our operating model should be, in the future, versus what it is now and, and kind of what the stepping stones are. So essentially, the blueprint, really, of the organisation. So these are the key things for me, that kind of helps. And if you're struggling to do that other start, then there's some little red flags and warning flags that I think needs to be addressed before you even attempt it. Because you need that alignment. So

Ian Kingstone  18:28  
I totally agree with you. I've just I've just been working with on a large global FTSE 100 transformation and they got kind of a business case signed off the the chief executive and said, Yeah, get on with it. In fact, the chief executive said, Can you do it a bit quicker? And why haven't you been doing it earlier kind of conversation. I think people transformation, big business change, but who's going to change a lot of it's kind of affect a lot of people within the organisation. And and they've got a kind of a business case together, the way that they were going really meet some to go right back to back to that. Identifying and defining a programme, MSP. Same same thing uses exactly those tools to really clearly. Just because they kind of know the journey they want to go on. They're all agreeing, it's a journey that they need to go on. They're kind of a lot, but they've not. They've not clarified a few things that they needed to clarify. So, you know, one of the executive things, it's about organisational change only, yeah. Just restructure the people type thing. Another one wants to do it where you've got a foundation and then the second phase is where a lot of the value comes in. But what they've not kind of necessarily gauged is that to fund the first phase. They've kind of got to think about how they bring some of the second phase in early because the financially the organization's not going to fund it through it. processes if it doesn't have some kind of return, if you want. So there's lots of things that when you do things like define a programme properly, those things will come out. So yeah, I agree. All of those tools are really useful tools to align stakeholders. But also, I think we talked about, you know, how can we size the amount of change and in the business case, and how can we get them to see the importance of their changes. And I think that's another way as well, of driving that, I think, doing those those types of activities, blueprints really, really interesting that you call it blueprint, you could call it operating model, or you could call it the housing, how's the organisation going to look what you're trying to achieve, and then sorting that out in MSP that's kind of that that approach. And the more of those stakeholders are involved in that process, I think, early on, that the more that you can start to understand and they can understand the the size scale, and and how that change may need to happen. So I totally agree. And I live by MSP myself as well, to be honest with you. So So, you know, in change msps got changed organisation change in its in its

Jonathan Parnaby  21:19  
embedded, isn't it? Yeah, it's added it to its nature. So, so. Okay, so kind of picking what you just said around by the business case, and sizing up the change effort? I mean, have you had that kind of experience with, you know, exempt boards, looking at the business case, and looking at, you know, the the percentage of the budget that's allocated to organisational change management and and then going, really, by, do we need this? Do we can we not strip this down. And basically challenging the costs associated in running organisational change property, I mean, if it can be come across that before,

Ian Kingstone  21:53  
yeah, lots of times. Some kind of high level, change impact type, work business case level, even if it's as simple as red, Amber, green type, cut, ragging, the kind of areas of change and whether we think it's going to be hard or, and that so you can start to have those conversations because you can start to demonstrate where, where we think there's, you know, a lot of change and how complex is going to be and then you can start to get into one, why you need to take people through, you know, a process, so to speak and change. But we've been talking about it throughout this this season. And how important that is. And I think I think a lot of organisations will fall, and we've talked about this a bit in, in earlier episodes will fall into the trap of wireless communications, and just just when some, certainly other and we talked about that in some of the detail. So I think you need a business case level to really bring out the approach and why that approach is important. You might not get buy in from everybody, but you're getting buy in enough that people should be kicking back the business case, if you haven't allocated the finances if you want and the capability and the aligned capabilities to make sure that you've you're doing that. And I think one of the key tools that I always do in the business case is say, this is the capabilities we are trying to put into the auto change the organisation This is the the programme is to transform this, that and the other and these the capabilities and the things we need to do to do that. But in the business case, I always put a section in and these are the capabilities we need to transform. Yeah, so so there's a set of capabilities, we need to, you know, drive the transformation. So in itself, you've got a plan on how you're going to mature those capabilities, whether you're going to do the management go whether you're going to do them before you go is the same as what we've done. So I look at that almost as a change piece in itself within the programme. Have we got the right capabilities within the programme within the business? Are we engaging with the right people? So, you know, we talk we talk about, you know, organisational change management. You know, one of the things that I would assess in the business cases, is the organisation good organisational change management?

Jonathan Parnaby  24:20  

Ian Kingstone  24:20  
was there a bit of a maturity analysis of it at that stage, because then you can advise why it needs to be in there, you can demonstrate the money that you then need to put it in there and you can give them the plan as part of the business case. So in part of your cost, and you've costed it,

Jonathan Parnaby  24:36  
yeah, no completely I think in my mind, if it you know, if I ever get challenged, saying well, why do we need to spend so much on change? violences is typically ideally proven, is the remember those benefits that we talked about in the business case listing the things that you've just read? Well, if you want to kind of ensure that we get that value, you need to Invest in ensuring now people are transforming and changing along. So one great saw. And he kind of touched upon that a little bit there. And that that kind of answer is that benefits to dependency mapping, right. So you've kind of got new technology enablers. So we're gonna implement a HR system, mindsets attack technological enabler, there's also, you know, some business enablers that need to happen as well. So coupled with the technology, then delivers that capability into the organisation, which then delivers the value. So it's really making the kind of exact and strategic kind of levels in the organisation understand that it's not just about implementing an HR system, it's about, yes, it's partly implementing that system, it's also implementing, you know, the, the the maybe the changes in payment terms on payroll, as another thing, or you may be that we have to do, you know, a few other kinds of organisational change, maybe maybe it's, you know, we're restructuring the entire HR department, you know, going more down the business partner route, whatever, whatever it is, these are things that need to be pulled in, as well as pulling the system in. And it's Yes, getting them to understand that, you know, a plus b equals C, so it's not just a equals C, or B equals C, it's got to do at all, if you want to get that value, otherwise, it's going to be tainted, and when you get to the end of the transformation, you're going to run into some problems.

Ian Kingstone  26:30  
I mean, I totally agree, and that that dependency mapping is really important. And a lot of people think that dependency mapping and benefits is just so you don't, you don't double dip on benefits, which is one good way to do it. Yeah. But it's also by double dipping on benefits, I mean, that, you know, one area of the that's a programme is saying we're going to save some money here. And another areas thinking they're going to say the same money, because we've not joined out that they're both doing the same thing and the money available in twice the quantity and you could end up with maybe more bigger benefits. So you benefit the dependency map to see that that I agree with you, I actually think it's dependency mapping is is more important to see all the changes. And it really, I've never, never done a programme where the dependency map hasn't been really hard to put you can't put it on one page is too many lines and two new things, meeting things. So you break it down into sections, and then bring it back together again, for the business case. And I find that happens all the time. That just demonstrates the complexity of change in itself. You know, and then it demonstrates to the to the organisation, how much change, you know, coming back to, you know, how do we build that transformation? And so, yeah, that's, that's a real, real, and I think that's a really valuable tool. Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  27:54  
So yeah, no, awesome pointing. So let's kind of move on that the conversation then into that run in the transformation. So managing the plans, managing the power, human, obviously, we just touched upon benefits dependency mapping is as a great tool to kind of help do that. And also, I think that kind of helps us to understand what changes need to happen in what order, right, because you could then kind of work out what his dependencies are, and kind of move us forward. But But let's kind of double back. So we're in the middle of the transformation, or, you know, we're in the thick of it, how do we keep those senior stakeholders accountable, so that you know, getting a board and wander off on to other initiatives that are going on any organisation? How do we keep them interested and on the journey,

Ian Kingstone  28:41  
as well as being being engaged in some of the governance process that's running the programme, if you want or what project in getting them involved in some of that governance of understanding what's happening in decision making processes that where they need to be? I think, I think, actually bringing them back into the benefits piece is is a really key benefit is benefits driven programme. So, you know, early on, we should have made accountability and allocated certain benefits to some of those key stakeholders, senior staff. And we should have really baked that benefits into two, we had a realisation plan, as part of the overall kind of roadmap if you want as when we would expect what benefits from from where. So we need to bake that in to the management side of the organisation so that in the final, let's say some of these benefits financial Well, in the financial plans, you know, they're there for one of a better way of putting it on the hook. Yeah, the senior stakeholders to make sure that benefits are delivered much quite interesting without a lot of people don't necessarily realise they kind of write a business case, right? We've got the money. So we can sign this off. And now we just go off and deliver what we said. We're going to deliver Well, that's that's okay. But it's in some of these these change programmes, it's very difficult to know exactly the ins and outs of that piece. That business case. Yeah, really important to measure and track when you're actually in delivery. Because when you're not getting the benefits that you expected, then you might need to change your plans. Yeah. And it's that engagement of them being accountable for that. And on that journey, and not making it a rigid process to me, that I II, we put in place, but I don't see often is thought it's not thought of at the outset, by a lot of organisations that actually uses benefits driven, we need to track realisation, managed, the realisation of those benefits, all that bad. And if we're tainting it, then what do we need to do? What do we need to change? What levers Do we need to pull to comes back to your change journeys comes back to change planning, all of those types of things, and your project plans to to, to what you need to do. So that's a good way of keeping them engaged is making them accountable, keeping them on the hook, and getting them involved in the decision making around what's working and what's not working? It's also a good way of, you know, if you're doing better than you expected, maybe, you know, even putting stretch to do more. Yeah, and things like that. And a lot of programmes, there's this benefits as well, I don't mean that way, you deliberately want to change the organisation and take things away and change things because the transformation that you require. So it's also making sure that's happening or, or understanding where it's happening. So it's managed, and it's not unrealistic. And it doesn't look like Mary's not performing when it wasn't expected to be.

Jonathan Parnaby  31:50  
Yeah, no, I think that's such a good point that that whole dis-benefit thing, because, yeah, I think a lot of transformations go for a dip, before you come out the other end in a stronger position. And actually, if you are realising benefits, you know, let's say you've got those structures and processes are set up in place. And you can't measure that two months, after you've made a certain change in a phase or whatever. And then you check and go God, your head looks really bad. Like we're underperforming, where Yeah, with the outputs aren't as good, we're not delivering as much or whatever it is, and that can cause a lot of nervousness I think in for those that are engaged in it, you know, I think more often than not, it's the latter, it's the other where it's, you know, it's all up from work and benefits forgotten about, which frustrates the hell out of me, but, but where they are, where they do measure that, I think people also need to realise that you are massively disrupting an organisation, you're gonna have some issues up front, you're gonna have some challenges, and things aren't gonna be rosy from day one. And actually, during the thick of it, and we'll cover this in a minute, but during the thick of it is kind of where, where that change teams need to be really holding their weight, and really supporting that organisation, because you're going to get this benefits, and you're going to get some dips, and it's about riding that curve out as strong as possible.

Ian Kingstone  33:14  
Yeah, and I think I think there's an opportunity there, and for so many different things like, just because you didn't see it at the outset of the programme. Some of these programmes, you know, you and I've been on it can be two, two years, three years long, is the things that have changed from when she when she wrote the initial plan and the business case and the benefits case. So they are, they need to be fluid, and they need to keep working through and they need to be changing the direction of the programme, they need to be aligned to the direction of the programme and what it needs to do. But there should be opportunity to improve on that, or even find new benefits and find new areas that this transformation is driving. And on top of that, I think another level that that I really would like to try and get transformations to is then as time is passing using new innovations and new ways of doing things that may not have been thought of so a more agile way of transformation, that you might not have thought of them, you know, review the business case review where you are, but adding new ways of doing things and you should monitor and track that as you're doing the change.

Jonathan Parnaby  34:26  
Yeah, 100% I think these these, I say these things can last a long time, especially if they're quite ambitious. And you learn as you go, you know, what you think what you think to be true two years ago might not be true, you know, you're later or 18 months later because the market shifted or a competitor suddenly risen up out of nowhere starting to disrupt the market. So you take in an offensive or defensive position strategically and all that kind of stuff. There's you can't just be rigid and say, Well, you know, in the business case two years ago, this is what we set out to do. So we're gonna buy down, we're gonna deliver exactly what we said two years ago, we've got

Ian Kingstone  35:06  
I've been in some big programmes, and I know you have where, you know, somebody, if you want senior executive of change, the new executive comes in, and you're doing a large transformation that's got in multiple millions of cost story and already done. And you're on the way and the new executive might come in and look at strategy and maybe change your organization's direction a bit. This is where your governance comes in. This is where if you've got a steering layer, you know, in your programme, which you should have some kind of steering committee, that is what they're there to do not not there to, to look at your look at how well you're doing as a programme and sign things off as much they're they're more, you know, they're there from from the point of view of making some different decisions, if you can't make them at programme level, but at the end of the day, they're there to steer you, that's what the title is about. And if the organisation needs to change its direction, it doesn't mean that programme is no longer no good. You need to look at where the organisation is changing what the impact of that is on your business case. And where you are within that process and look at changing that. And I do find that you'll see a lot of change in organisations where all of a sudden, they just they, they just, then they kind of assume well, that that that programme, I didn't you know, I wasn't I didn't sign that off. I wasn't here then. So you know, we're going to know, a line programme. Now going, unless you might need to stop if you keep taking the organisation a completely direction, hopefully, you know, but but, but you know, so that the organic otherwise, these these programmes then don't deliver, because they get kind of not funded and left to kind of rot if you run die. Yeah. So, so much it does. So you know, and, and the same thing with running a transformation, when, when is something's maybe when didn't start off, right. And that transformation doesn't mean you can't redo that in the middle of the transformation doesn't mean you can't take a step back and not not, I don't mean like a big costly step back. But a process to review the direction and make sure that, that you're still aligned to those benefits, and that things are still mapping that same direction, because, you know, these things along organisations are complex, and there's lots of change in organisation that may or may just or in industry, in your industry

that may impact your transformation. 

Jonathan Parnaby  37:36  
Massively, massively. Okay. So let's let's kind of wrap up then into the kind of final section around closing the transformation then. And so, you know, when do we know we've achieved that change? What you know, when can we kind of go? Well, that's done.

Let's move on, 

Ian Kingstone  37:55  
it should show in the numbers if it's financial benefits realisation if it's not financial benefits realisation, if it's, you know, some other value driven process, you should have a, a measuring process with realising that the change has happened. So I'm trying to think of a good example, you know, you might do a survey on people and, you know, are they are they happy with this new way of working and do they enjoy their work more, or whatever, if one of your values in your programme was to make it easier for people to work in these situations, or to do these things, they may not have put financial numbers round, probably would have done a survey before you made the changes, and you do a survey after you made the changes is just an example, to then mark on whether actually the changes are taking effect and driving the right results. And when you're doing your benefits to value management, you would think about the timing of that post. And when you would expect to see the benefit. Things that I would often how'd you put timing in to make sure you're sustaining the changes that Yeah, so I do a 3 6 9 month pipe of measurement to say yes, we've we've implemented this and the results that we expect to the happening. But you might also do 18 months, 12-18 months type checkpoint to make sure that people haven't changed back to their old ways or processes or, or things like that. So the question is, when does the transformation end? Yeah. And then how to mark that it's happened and I think you've got to be realistic in your realisation planning, of when you would deem it to be and the district can't keep a big, certainly a big programme running with the capabilities you need to do that. So you kind of I think you met you. You kind of like when you mobilise a programme you kind of de mobilise a programme. Yeah. And I think you need to kind of measure that change through benefits realisation really, yeah. And the other thing that comes to mind as well, from from, from our utilities days, when you and I worked together was, was also that, as you're measuring those things, you find new opportunities. Yeah, it was really important is that that might be the next list of projects or next next phase of a transformation, or just some smaller changes and tweaks, it still can happen that you wouldn't realise until six or eight months past the last transition that you made. So so I think that's another healthy reason to do it, when people have been working at something for a period of time they see new opportunities. So but as far as closing the transformation, ensuring it's happened, that's to me that's about, you know, measuring the realisation. And and then, then, you know, there's a lot of opportunity to, to grow from that and look at what's next.

Jonathan Parnaby  41:06  
I think my point is, in depending on the organisation, depending on the makeup structures, and how hungry, the exact song for transformation in general is, why would you close it? Right? Why would you close a transformation and maybe this is more holistic, because you're closing it because you achieve the outcome that you set out in your programme, which is fine, because that's kind of programme management. But as you just said, like, for the realisation of benefits, you identify new things, so why not have that kind of organised that transformation organisation in place to continuously improve that organization's and keep keep it ticking along? Because my fear in a lot of these programmes and I see all the time, is let's say you do your nine month benefit measurement, you know, put the dipstick in kind of thing and pull it out and go, Oh, that's that or that? That's, yeah, it's not not actually realising as much as we thought and the resources that we had the change team that we have, the the programme team that we have had all disbanded. Because they're all on new things on a new programme of work or whatever. Yeah, then, you know, how do we do that? That kind of thing?

Ian Kingstone  42:19  
Well, I think what you're talking about, that is something that I'm really interested in, in business transformation overall. Yeah. And we'll talk about it, I'm sure in future seasons, but that lean portfolio is where I go with that with the kind of their organisation The world is moving so fast, that the changes and transformation is happening everywhere, every industry, technology is moving so fast, that's driving a lot of it's not all day, a lot of it, you know, mega trends are happening disruption all the time. And it's getting quicker and quicker. So an organisation that's not constantly transforming, in my view, is not likely to survive too long. So therefore, the capability to transform needs to be there and built into that organisation, or they need to be able to bring it in as they need it quite readily. At least, you know, components of it. So So that's, that's a view that business transformation. Now, if you look at, you've done a large transformation, or business or organisation change type programme, then I'm kind of with you on that, that they consistently should move to the next pieces of work if you want. So, if that's a programme, you know, you those people might move to another programme within that organisation, there's part of the portfolio of transformation. Yeah. And then when I look at the portfolio management, which is two biggest subject to talk about in this, but I think where you were going was more of an agile approach. I love that, that kind of lean portfolio management process where you're constantly looking at what's in the backlog of transformational change in Drive, through your portfolio in projects and programmes and grouping them and putting the right transformational capability around them, which is, I think, where certainly the larger organisations need and must go in the future and get better at it. Because otherwise, like I said, they'll survive. So so I know that's quite a big thing. But I think it's absolutely important because actually, if you start doing that, at the start when we were talking about the beginning of this, if you put those mechanisms in place and the capabilities to do that as an organisation, then your transformation when you've changed project or programme might come to an end as far as what it was measured, what its case was for, but your overall capability and driver transformation should continue. And you see I see some big, some of the more advanced you know Larger organisations are already working in that way. And we worked in, we started one where we were in the utilities where we put in a transformation office that had that capability. And now your organisation is all about that. So you know, it's having that capability or whether whether for the big organisation, they might tend to have it in house, but for the medium or smaller organisation, they might come to Jonathan Parnaby, to get that capability to put them into organisation.

Jonathan Parnaby  45:30  
I think it's interesting, Nigel, and not not to come and go deep on agile because, you know, that's another season in itself. And, but I think there's a real place for kind of agile, delivery and transformation. And actually, we've been talking about programmes that last two, three years, and they seem quite monolithic, and, you know, quite big. And you can kind of imagine long drawn out phases of work in a waterfall style, and all this kind of stuff. But as we know, it just depends on what that transformation is, it depends on the technologies involved, to be able to deliver those where we can deliver them in an agile approach waterfall approach, but that's not gonna bog ourselves down on that, because, you know, we don't really got a working example that we're talking about, but in general terms, you know, going back to organisational change management, it just lends itself so well to that kind of agile approach. And actually any kind of programme that I'm working on now, I'm always looking at how can we get to a place where we're realising value in increments, rather than six months for this, then measure, and then another six months for the next phase? And then measure is like, how can we break this down? So for example, I'm working on a CRM programme at the moment, we're kind of just currently in discovery, but you know, we're already talking about we've got three phases, but actually, we want to kind of break those down into further drops of functionality, and how can we work out our and how can we not only work agile from a technological, you know, build, test, deploy kind of environment, but also from a change? Again, take that into the conversation. That's one of the things that I've always struggled sometimes in an agile teams is that they're brilliant at what they do. And depending on the makeup of the team, you know, when we got product owners in there, wherever they're doing, what product owners should do all that kind of stuff, is that sometimes the communications out of that team doesn't always happen. Or if they are doing a sprint review is very technical. So it's like, here's, here's some code that I've pulled together, and they looks at this web page, and there isn't that great. But sometimes that kind of articulation of what it means the business is sometimes lost, not always, and it's sometimes lost just depends. And actually, I think there's a real Yeah, there's a real opportunity, I think, in baking, proper change management processes in the agile way. And it just lends itself so well,

Ian Kingstone  48:02  
I think it does lend itself so well, I think organisational change and that kind of iterative approach is the way to do organisational change. Yeah, I think, I think for people, it's easy. And understand, and if we can break it down in that type of way and help people on you know, people centric, value driven. Yeah, agile type delivery. And I think, you know, your I liked what you said, realising value in increments, I think that's really, really a good way of looking at it. And I think that's where like to say that the modern organisation should be going. So if you can run off the back of a good transformation, and you put that capability capability into that transformation, you've got to that kind of what we would in the traditional way call closing a transformation, you know, that close, if you can run that into either the next programme or project through some kind of portfolio process, or that capabilities remains within the organisation through some kind of transformation office, some kind of, or department, you know, some kind of function that exists full time within that organisation. I think that's that that is really key for modern organisations to keep doing change. Well, yeah. So again, comes back to that, that strategic comes back to that key stakeholder piece comes back to the business case, building that capability. Come back, you know, that whole piece for me, and it's what I certainly spend a lot of my time on organisations, consulting in that area. Yeah. And get that that that thinking and i think i think the more that's done, and the more that's done, the more the more the more organisations are getting used to that's what it takes to do this. Well.

Jonathan Parnaby  50:01  
Last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the veer and butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation

Ian Kingstone  50:08  
yet so you can contact us at the website So that's There you will find show notes on everything we've talked about in today's show or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's

Jonathan Parnaby  50:29  
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.

What have we been up to?
Remote working
Setting the scene for transformation
Getting senior stakeholders aligned
Plan to mature transformation capabilities
Mapping change and benefits
Managing change and value
Realisation and closing transformation
Continuous value delivery through increments
Last orders