Beer & Butterfly

Season 1 - Episode 6: "No one told me that!"

March 31, 2021 Ian Kingstone & Jonathan (JP) Parnaby Season 1 Episode 6
Beer & Butterfly
Season 1 - Episode 6: "No one told me that!"
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Whilst wondering what the "Pie of the Day" is at the Beer & Butterfly, Ian & JP now move the conversation onto one of the change execution pillars "Awareness & Engagement".  JP was travelling in between lockdowns last year and caught up on some films, one of witch involved a laptop, the dark web and a series of characters getting "bumped off" (sounds like a classic right) whilst Ian discusses the latest IP Man film and the legend that is Bruce Lee.  Our hosts continue to explore the topic of communications and the importance of making stakeholders aware of the upcoming changes through various tools, methods and channels.

  • 00:00 - Intro
  • 01:15 - What have we been up to?
  • 06:36 - Awareness and engagement
  • 09:28 - You can't over do it
  • 14:05 - Communication channels
  • 24:17 - Comms and culture
  • 29:28 - Control Rooms
  • 33:59 - Day in the life of
  • 38:57 - Comms and education
  • 40:45 - Sensitive communications
  • 44:29 - Question time
  • 52:07 - Last orders

Ian Kingstone  0:03  
What you having then Jonathan,

Jonathan Parnaby  0:05  
A pint please mate

Ian Kingstone  0:06  
two pints, please landlord

Jonathan Parnaby  0:08  
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting then

Ian Kingstone  0:11  
Over there? sat at that table over there? 

Jonathan Parnaby  0:13  
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're gonna tell them,

Ian Kingstone  0:18  
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:23  
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there? Who have you got

Ian Kingstone  0:27  
Some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:33  
Cool, fantastic. Well lets crack on, lets get over there.

Ian Kingstone  0:35  
Welcome to the Beer and Butterfly

Jonathan Parnaby  0:37  
a podcast where we talk transformation.

Ian Kingstone  1:03  
I'm Ian Kingstone.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:05 
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.

Ian Kingstone  1:06  
And we're your hosts.

Ian Kingstone  1:08  
This episode is all about awareness and engagement, referencing the importance of making people aware through transformation.

Ian Kingstone  1:15  
So have you watched any good movies? Any new movies that have come about recently?

Ian Kingstone  1:19  
Yeah, I don't know if they're new, but we've been doing a lot of visiting family recently. So I've set up as I mentioned, probably previous episodes on I'm actually from East Midlands, and my brother still lives up in Lincolnshire, and my wife's father and stepmom. They live up in Wigan. So we literally two weekends on the trot, sitting on motorways going back and back and forth. But it's great to kind of catch up with them. And you get time to sit down and watch films and stuff like that. So yeah, the way this film I kind of watched was what was it called? Unfriended The Dark Web, which I know sounds like a classic. But it was recommended by my wife's mother-in-law, what is it unfriended and friend friended by Facebook when you

Ian Kingstone  2:10  
say yeah,

Ian Kingstone  2:12  
it's weird, because the whole film is you watching a MacBook screen. And there's no like, like camera angles.

Ian Kingstone  2:19  
I know you do that all day anyway. I think you know, I'm at work again. I

Jonathan Parnaby  2:23  
know it's there. She'll do a different.

Jonathan Parnaby  2:27  
Yeah, I don't I don't.

Ian Kingstone  2:30  
Yeah, but yeah,

Ian Kingstone  2:31  
the whole premise of the film is literally, this guy is working on this kind of accessibility app. This cuz he's got a girlfriend who's deaf. And he's kind of pulling together an app that allows him to type or speak, and it comes up with a sign language for for what he's saying in real time. But he stole this laptop from a cyber cafe. And it ended up being like belongs to this really dodgy dodgy bloke who deals with the dark web and stuff and then as the film progresses, in the literally having night conversations and that guy's trying to get a laptop back and then there's lots of kidnappings and other friends that are on this Skype or this group Skype call ended up kind of getting bumped off and so it's kind of like a thriller slash like horror film A it's just really seen through a laptop or see through a laptop through like video capture screens and stuff

Ian Kingstone  3:22  
that's easy to produce or not but yeah, yeah, I suppose that still got the the scenes that they must have had to produce.

Ian Kingstone  3:28  
Yeah, absolutely. But I'm still trying to work out if it was any good or not.

Jonathan Parnaby  3:34  
Yeah, but after

Ian Kingstone  3:35  
watch it after give it a go. I haven't watched anything particularly new. I love my kung fu movies. Oh, yeah. Over the years and I saw on Netflix the other day, it man for the finale or whatever. And so watch that, which I really enjoyed. Because it's got that whole Bruce Lee San Francisco Bay in which I've seen that, you know, a lot of Bruce Lee movies over the years and the read lots of books about Bruce Lee. So you kind of I like to try and see whether they stick to the theme every time and they did to be fair. The you know, the whole kind of wanting to punch there. And all of that was was all in there, which was all good. I really enjoyed that. So but but now i don't think i've seen anything new new. I don't know how long they manforce been out but I hadn't seen that in probably a couple of years. So yeah, that was good. listen to some music. A few few albums have come out. instrumental guitar albums that that people have obviously got done through lockdown. I guess they'll kind of I've listened to but nothing. Yeah, and obviously I've been to see any live shows or anything or most people yeah, I've seen a few things on YouTube that were recorded when they were live on Facebook or whatever, but nothing, nothing. Live live. Business as usual at the moment, I think

Ian Kingstone  4:59  
yeah. It's interesting though, isn't it? It's like I say I think we're starting to just kind of get back to that that normal and even just visiting the family obviously keeping safe and try to you know be social distance and all that kind of stuff but yeah, it's quite nice to do it but then obviously we did two weekends on the trice on now not good

Ian Kingstone  5:21  
I found that in the mornings in uni get back into a routine but also getting back into the routine of not having too much sleep and doing all the other things that you do and and stuff like that but and also the nicest time to draw in and everything starting to get a bit cold yeah me so I'm going out on the bike is March you know

Ian Kingstone  5:42  
that type of thing we can you believe alone You know, I'd see the say the C word and mean Christmas by the way. But yeah, it's not gonna be five is it? Literally weeks right around the corner waiting to pounce and yeah, I'm surprised that my wife's not already prepared. Obviously she's normally live by August September. It's ridiculous that she's literally got all the President's got it off. So but but yeah, it's obviously been a lockdown. That's kind of slowed it down a little bit. But yeah, we'll see when we, anyway. Yeah, it's good to be back in the the fictional pub. We just need a drink. Now don't wait.

Ian Kingstone  6:20  
Yeah. But enough to drive and when

Ian Kingstone  6:24  
we should do so in an actual pub, rather than my bar. Which is tempting, isn't it? When you look nice. Yeah, I can see some organs and gyms and stuff. But there we go.

Ian Kingstone  6:36  
So this issue this today's episode, yeah. What are we talking about today, then we're going to go through when we leave off.

Ian Kingstone  6:45  
So we left off talking about kind of the mid season break in way. And we we obviously just took a breather, right,

Ian Kingstone  6:53  
an overview of kind of where we were and the other parts of transformation that Yeah, sense that and how they all link into organisational change management? Absolutely. If you want the core of a lot of those kinds of activities,

Ian Kingstone  7:07  
and that was really good, because, you know, obviously, we've been getting some meaty subjects. And we could probably speak for hours on each of those subjects. But yeah, it's kind of just jump back up again, look strategically and, and kind of talk strategically was was definitely, definitely a highlight. But yeah, we're going back down in the trenches in and we narrow and D, they are indeed definitely and we're going to talk about the awareness and engagement, kind of aspects of, of change execution. So if you remember, we talked about change preparation, as the whole kind of planning piece, and then change execution is how we're going to deliver awareness and engagement is one of the strands.

Ian Kingstone  7:48  
Yeah, and I think this this, this is where we start to see become a bit more agile in the sense of was, it wasn't our job before, and the other areas, but this is where feedback. And when we get into execution and the subjects that are in execution as such, then we start to get into Well, you know, after we delivering that communication, engagement, and learning more about how the each change is different, each transformation brings up different things at this stage

Ian Kingstone  8:15  
completely. So like the business problem, I tend to kind of hear or or face, kind of in this theme is the business is not aware of the changes to so they haven't even begun that that journey of awareness and and, you know, we probably all got experiences of those projects, yet again, all programmes where people aren't necessarily aware of what's going on,

Ian Kingstone  8:41  
or they might be aware, they might know, are this big project coming along, it's going to do this or it's improving that, but they don't really understand what it means how that's going to affect them, or they might have a different view. Yeah, and I guess a lot of it's how well we've talked about this, and when we talk some of the other things throughout the series, but in the season, but but the vision might give us an idea of where we're trying to get to etc, etc. But when we actually come down to specifics, and start to communicate those out to the business, you know, how do we engage? How do we know who's engaged and who isn't engaged and, and start to move through, you know, that type of thing, get feedback loops, etc, etc.

Ian Kingstone  9:28  
So if you've got any anecdotes around this kind of awareness theme, so obviously, we were talking about what what you're saying is strategically, people can be aware because you know, there might be a big noise about the initiative or from the weeds, maybe not so

Ian Kingstone  9:42  
no, and the only thing I would say about this is every project or programme I've worked on, this is an area that we can't overdo it.

Jonathan Parnaby  9:52  
Yeah, I think yeah, I think I think

Ian Kingstone  9:54  
it's an area where I've always felt, we communicate enough have we got to everybody. And I guess I've worked on some big projects and programmes, but even on some of the smaller ones. I often get to a stage where I think to the, you know, are we getting the message across in it? Are people understanding what, what, what's happening or what needs to happen? And are they on board. And so I think, hopefully, we'll talk about some tools and techniques on kind of gauging where people are at. But I think we can never do too much of it is. So I don't have any specifics other than I've been in a lot of situations where I thought everybody knew what what was going to happen and what the changes were, and then you get to find out that they don't, or something else comes out that nobody knew about through that process, which means you have to kind of review where you kind of end up looking yourself thinking, why wouldn't Why don't we know this before? Yeah, you know, and it's often another project for another programme, or something that's going on in the business we weren't aware of, but when you start to communicate with people who actually the change is actually affecting, and they're, they're going to be part of that change, other things come out that so so that's kind of, I can't think of a specific example. But that's,

Ian Kingstone  11:13  
yeah, I've got one which has just sprung to my mind. To be fair, it's a project we did for a retail company, where we were basically enhancing handheld terminals for the retail staff with some extra functionality to help with stock administration and a goods receipt in stock as it comes in and be able to move stock from store to store kind of booking out booking in, and also kind of doing product information on the shop floor, I can kind of see basically pulling information from SAP their ERP solution. And putting that kind of data and information to the, to the people on the floor. From a communications point of view, I mean, I was I was a BA on on that particular project. And it's one of my early ones, I'm talking quietly when I was a young lad, and, and it was just me and some other guy working on this. And, and, you know, as we're kind of rolling, rolling this stuff out, we know, we briefed the store managers say this is what's happening. And we did some road shows and things like that. So we, you know, taken a few of those general things that we were doing. But, you know, we weren't comms managers, we didn't have a fully fledged comms plan. We didn't, you know, kind of have a great approach to thing actually, these people that are using these handheld terminals, does every one of them know that this project even exists? And now there was no, because like, is when we got to that roll out place. And even after that the pilots we did, yeah, there was a surprise that the trainers would turn upon store and say, This is what we're going to train you and that, really, that's interesting. And so yeah, even that kind of reliance, or we told the store manager, so it's fine. We didn't obviously have the feedback mechanism that said, that actually, that message about

Ian Kingstone  13:09  
went down to the shifts people know it's happening. And the Yeah, so yeah, I turn up for shift, I'm gonna do my day's work. And somebody turns out with a new handheld and says, Oh, you using this now? Yeah. It's trying to show you how to do it today. And I'm thinking why I had my own plans and what I was going to get done today, and what order and how I was going to do it. And I'm used to that. And suddenly it just knocking me right out of my comfort zone. Yeah. So where am I accepting this handheld? All of a sudden, you said I'm having this today? No, no. Do it tomorrow mate

Ian Kingstone  13:38  
Yeah. And that's because we're on the resource, right? You know, as the PA, we didn't have a project manager, I had a technical guy who who knew the handheld terminals, you know, from a technical point of view, knew the software that's going in kind of how that functioned. 

Jonathan Parnaby  13:52  
No toolbox talks, they see no,

Ian Kingstone  13:55  
no, it just you know, but looking back now know what I know, learnt what I've learned in the past and just thinking, God, why do you do something completely different? For you experience that

Ian Kingstone  14:05  
What kinds of things do you do, then? I mean, I know I, I think I I do and I kind of look at the change network to help me look at the communications and where and when and now just give us give us a good example, perhaps of somewhere that good, what what what good can look like? 

Ian Kingstone  14:26  
Yeah, I think before I can't bring that to life in terms of what this could look like. I think the first thing that any change team or even programme team should explore is what are the communications channels that we have available today? And what are the gaps with those channels? Yeah. And don't always don't assume that those are the channels that are available is everything that you can use, you know, because you know what we found though, I found personally I'm sure you have a and there's, you know, on some projects, you've got stakeholders now. You're going to be impacted and they're not, you're not able to reach them using the conventional means. And you have to create new ways to get to them. So I think you need to really understand those those channels is the key piece for me before you can even think about what good looks like. Because otherwise, you're just going to revert to the usual emails, internet, the monster quarter standard presentation.

Ian Kingstone  15:26  
So what I've done in the past, certainly, and more recently has gone. I've been in organisations where they've had a comms internal comms group. So I've gone to that and coeternal comms group and said, we're going to be doing this programme, we need to get communications out a couple of things, reasons why I do this. First one is, what else is going on? Hopefully, they'll know a bit more about what else is going on. So we can make sure that we're not weather where there might be some clashes with lots of things, lots of change at once somewhere, lots of communications, you know, going at people and which one, are they going to come to the top of the bar search? But also they know exactly what you've just said, they're often what works well with a certain group stakeholders, or certain people, what what kind of things work well, on the shop floor, the Depo, or in the offices or whatever the changes are happening, what they often know that a good way of communicating with with with that group is their job, right? So yeah, so they might not have all the ways you need for this programme. But then straight away, you've kind of rallied other people and engaged other people in that. The only downside of that sometimes is it can then just be seen as another internal comps. Which should work really, but yeah, state doesn't always know doesn't matter.

Ian Kingstone  16:52  
And I think it's, yeah, it's kind of like, you need to know how effective are the internal comms in your organisation? Right Do y'all know that being in that organisation speaking to people, that people actually read this stuff, or, you know, the people actually engage in feedback. And that's the thing. I think the first call calling if I was on a consulting client, and I was in the change programme, would be to first check. Is there a communications department? Yeah, for internal comms? If so, go meet with them, get really pally with them, and understand what channels they have available. And actually ask them for their communication channels this. And if you look at your bit blindly like, then there's something wrong.

Ian Kingstone  17:36  
What hasn't worked before? I think, you know, in this day and age, it's quite easy to put comms out on either, you know, an intranet or load to modern technology out there people using different different means of doing things, whether it's Slack, or why are they doing. And, and it's easy to kind of maybe put video together or something to say what this programme is about, or what's going to happen or whatever. But that doesn't mean people are watching them. That doesn't mean, you know, so it's easy to do a lot of cons, let's say yeah, that are that is actually getting through and is easy to do engaging. So does that count? Is that internal communications? What? What's worse, I think is also the right question as well as what channels Yeah, which of those channels land? Yeah, and if they don't know, you got that worry.

Ian Kingstone  18:28  
I think you know, that the first port of call is look at what you've got. And, you know, do that assessment on whether you think that's fit for purpose or not, if you if you're not fortunate to have that kind of communication support. And it literally is just yourself in the team. And, you know, I'm currently engaged with a client that doesn't have that. So I know a lot of the initiatives, I haven't handle a lot of that themselves, which is fine, then you need to create a communications channels list. And then start, you know, locking them down and things you want to be capturing in that is obviously what the communication channel is like. And that's kind of obvious, but you know, is it a push channel is a poor channel? Is it kind of two way? Who owns that channel? Because usually there's people in the organisation that owns the distribution of communications to to the area, even if there wasn't a communications department, you'll usually find that if there's an intranet that somebody moderates it or posts content, or maybe you're allowed to, if you're you've got certain access tickets, SharePoint, whatever. So you just got to kind of do that investigation, pull all that information together and get any good change team should have a handle on kind of, you know, what, what is available? Like, what are the tools available in my communications arsenal?

Ian Kingstone  19:46  
Yeah, and what are the methods I mean, have gained some feedback and so on and so forth. So when I view certain community, I'm going way back now, but when I was doing Big ERP for a paper company that turn of the century. They thought, you know, we had we had noticeboards. Yeah, it sounds really daft. But places people found stuff out was in each paper mail in each paper machine and each shift pan would go to a notice board or the clocking in wherever they did those things which may be a bit anxious these days and maybe not happened too much. But it was the place we could get. Also the gate house, everybody came through the gate house, we could get information passed out as they came through the gate, simple paper based staff, Paper Company cookies. But that was you know, one means now things are different. You know, there's portals, there's there's all sorts of means of getting information to an employee,

Ian Kingstone  20:49  
you know, although I think that physical communications medium is more relevant today, we got so much distraction and noise in digital format. You know, if you look at your email inbox, how much stuff do you get? Because it just gets hidden, because of everyone's trying to communicate to you in that way. And I love I love the innovation around communications. And I've worked with some great comms managers in the past who have kind of brought these physical communications channels to life. And that that's the other thing I should mention is that Yeah, communication channel isn't digital. It can be physical. Yeah, it can be that the notice board or toolbox,

Ian Kingstone  21:27  
tool, toolbox, everything I've ever done in operations, and in the manufacturing type organ, yes, you know, services based type organisations are spread out. Now this is challenging, but this is where usually change network, yes. But so if you've got hundreds of sites, which we've done, and we've done that, you know, you can't be at all those sites, you can't be at all those two, what your team can't be doing all of those kinds of communications and an internal communications team can't be doing. So you've got to have that network. And we've talked about that. And I think that, in that toolbox talks to me that personalised type communications where somebody turns up and explains what's going on and captures two way, you know, get some feedback, and, and has a process which we put in place through that. That's quite the channel. Yeah, to deliver that. To me, though, those have always worked really successfully. Yeah, alongside that have a site where people can go and get information, have a feedback process, have a chat room, whatever, electronically. But But I still think that personal kind of creating those situation stand ups toolbox talk to me on a call them those types of activities, certainly, or, you know, going and going and spending some time with what they do today.

Ian Kingstone  22:53  
But if you take some of the Agile principles, you know, if you're looking at your environment and the way your team works together, then I think they'll always kind of recommend that that physical meeting space, if that's what you can achieve, obviously, in this day and age, physically being there. So I was very challenging in the moment. And obviously, digital is very helpful. But you know, I think it just it raises the importance of physical communication. So me and you know, I remember a great example that my comms manager came up with to try and get some communications to the sites. Because of that very reason. We did use toolbox talks, which we kind of fed in through that network. Also, we had kind of on the notice board, basically, our client programme branded board with a kind of Polly Pocket attached to it, of which then there would be the change agency to the site, that would be the email the communications to weekly, they would switch over physically on your site. And we're responsible for making sure that happens,

Ian Kingstone  24:01  
like a countdown kind of process week, you know, 10 weeks till Wednesday, and this is the bit of information we give them.

Ian Kingstone  24:08  
This is what you should be doing. And, and you know, and obviously, that change agent network didn't happen by chance, we thought about a couple of episodes ago about how we kind of built that network

Ian Kingstone  24:17  
that also brings up another thing for me, which is really important is timing. Yeah, so you've got the different channels, but there's different times when you when you're on a change journey. When when do where, when and where and thinking about when to communicate certain bits of information. And I'm all for one for communicate, communicate, communicate and let people know what's going on as early as possible. Don't keep people with you know, if you don't need them worrying about ambiguity, then don't, you don't need it. So let's not have but at the same time, there is also a lot of questions with some of those communications or a lot of then processes that need to happen with those communications. means that timing is really important.

Ian Kingstone  25:02  
Yeah, you've got the generic stuff over, you've got like, this is what the programme is about. This is the generic value, it's going to give you blah, blah, blah, or even specifics to certain functions, which you kind of want to do keep the heartbeat keep picking

Ian Kingstone  25:15  
on, you know, me I'm, we've done on really get back into vision, that unreal, rich picture. Yeah, I want people seeing the journey where we go, yeah, where we're going, why we're going there. And we think, you know, some of the challenges are, that that should have been done way early on. But that doesn't mean it can't be reinforced, we used cracked reemphasized all the way through that contrast. So you're right,

Ian Kingstone  25:36  
you know, if we go back to those impacts again, and we talk about when do they need to be dealt with? Before during after go live? Then Yeah, when you've done the change execution planning, you should have an idea of what you need to be saying to people for when, right, yeah. And then therefore, yeah, carrying those columns are looking at what channels you're actually going to use. And, and when we're kind of doing those change journeys that were mentioned before. It's then having those kind of core messages already defined. So in the awareness and engagement stream, these are things that we need to tell people, and these are the channels that we're going to use, so that you already have an idea. And then you just got to shedule the web, like when do we tell them this group stakeholder group a message a, when do we tell stakeholder group B? In our message, see, whatever.

Ian Kingstone  26:25  
So yeah, it's, and I've seen challenges with that. So I'm working, I'm not actually doing the change, but I'm working with a change manager at the moment that's doing quite a large change in a global organisation. And one of his challenges is that, you know, he's got different languages, different cultures that they're communicating some of this change into, he's got to change network in place. And he is trying to get information from that change network, in maybe changing summer, or how do we communicate into that particular business in that particular part of the world? Yeah, pressure from the centre of the programme is saying, don't change the communications, we've got, you know, we know what we're communicating. But how you gonna land it locally, it may be slightly different culture might need to be done differently, again, change network comes into play here. Locally, you can then have feedback and say, well, actually do the toolbox talk isn't gonna work for these guys. What you want really to do with these guys is I don't know him in the canteen or something with with a stand up or whatever it is. Do you see what I mean? So the whereas another side, the culture might be no toolbox is the place to do it,

Ian Kingstone  27:40  
you know? But, you know, Yeah, we did. We've done lots of stuff in the past. And, you know, we've driven around sites we divvied up between the team, and we've had like 20 sites each, and we've done like a road show. And we've gone out on tour, I just wish we had the tour bus. But we didn't have that. We just had our own cars. But you know, we it's about being creative. And I think don't just sell for the general channels that everybody uses, do use them, but don't sell for them and don't think about her creative solutions. You know, I think we had a great idea. And I wish we'd implemented it. And this is a waste and recycling company that we've both worked. And we said, Why can't we get a collections truck, branded up with the, by the programme brand. And either somehow kitted out with all the kind of information we need. And we just drive around through like a toolbox,

Ian Kingstone  28:41  
where the collections have an expensive vehicle, but it is yeah, I assume a quarter million quid each. Anyway,

Jonathan Parnaby  28:48  
we could have done something. I just love the fact that someone was sat there. Well, creatively they were trying to think of how can we engage

Ian Kingstone  28:55  
any nurse? Yeah, I agree. You know, and

Ian Kingstone  28:57  
that's something you're gonna remember. Yeah. You don't even remember an email hit your inbox last week that said, Hey,

Ian Kingstone  29:02  
this is happening. So I do treasure hunt. Come here and find this clue. And you'll find out what the change is gonna be.

Jonathan Parnaby  29:07  

Ian Kingstone  29:08  
Fun as well.

Ian Kingstone  29:09  
Yeah, yeah. And I always find that, you know, the good comms managers and change teams, just, they do have fun with this stage. Because there's

Ian Kingstone  29:17  
this and there's lots of options. And I guess that's the other thing is is to then get those planned out. Think that through work out what's working, work out what's not working, reassess. Understand the stakeholders, different groups, different ways, etc, etc. And then you should change network.

Ian Kingstone  29:38  
Those control rooms are really useful because how do you know if you're not communicating and communicating enough or well enough? Yeah. Yeah, and believe me, they will tell you

Ian Kingstone  29:51  
exactly. So if you're getting a lot of even a lot of issues, from somewhere through the communications and people bringing up reasons why are they gonna work, cause or Whatever, that are coming out through your control rooms as such, that's not such a bad thing. I'm not suggesting we want lots of issues, but at least now, you know, we've got to address. And you've got to know where they really are issues or whether they've they're understanding, you know, communications issues, whether they're actually issues that mean that she the solution, or whatever you're doing is not going to work. Yeah. And you need to change it or whatever. So, yeah,

Ian Kingstone  30:28  
the same point. And I did, don't be afraid to welcome criticism, and feedback. That's the point of that control room. And I think if you get in defensive about, you know what, I've got my plan, and it all works, and, and we know exactly what we need to say, if you control rooms telling you it doesn't work, it's not working. So abandon it or change it, or just get it so that that feedback is true. And it's right in it. So yeah, no control is a massive part of the change networks and massive power, you cannot generally do a lot of this on your own, especially if you've got dispersed observations.

Ian Kingstone  31:01  
So just kind of backtrack into our conversation. We've talked about what communication channels, those types of, you know, what types of what kind of ideas, using the change network, your control rooms, this listen to the business, but it's also listening to the business about how to communicate with the business. Yeah, and that side of things. And listening is really important. And how do you kind of get that feedback? And how do you drive that and yeah, getting the, the ideas for communications, the ideas for how to educate people in a lot of what we've done is systems and training, but they can be a little bit bland. I mean, I remember actually going again, back to the paper industry days, and for a lot of people, they don't seem to be difficult to believe these days, but a lot of people operations hadn't used IT, they used computers, then used mice. Yeah, you know, we weren't wireless mice, then those, but but it, we had to do a whole set of training, just to get them used to, you know, putting on any IT competency training, on on on, you know, on the on the operations on the floor, whether the paper has been made and the paper machines, we put computers with some games on them. You know, most manufacturing organisations will like, you can't walk, what you doing, whenever you get into why you're giving them some computer games to play was because we wanted them to get used to. And that was an ideal way to do it. And between the time they got a quick game, it can be a little bit. And they started to get used to the technology. So then when they've got to start looking at why a paper roll hasn't gone into SAP properly, and they've gone through some screens and changed some things. They've got some ideas of how to operate.

Ian Kingstone  32:55  
Yeah, you're not seeing like, you know, our kids on computers. Yeah, they've grown up with them. So Exactly. Yeah, it's second nature, isn't it? It's natural, we

Ian Kingstone  33:04  
saw that we saw straight away. I mean, this is kind of been off subject. But But we saw straight away that in the shifts, some of the younger people would do that type of thing. And some of the older people would shy away from it. So how'd you drag them into it to make it a little bit more fun to drag them into it? Because that's not really what we want to achieve? We wanted to upskill the people that were there not not just ignore them and let them kind of fade away, if that makes sense.

Ian Kingstone  33:30  
But yeah, this this is kind of like branching into our next episode isn't excited is literally capabilities.

Ian Kingstone  33:35  
Absolutely. But nobody said that. No, my point there was, yeah, how do you how do you drive that communications? How do you get people? This? Yeah, it is start getting people ready for capabilities. But then how do you start to get people to understand the changes coming through those types of columns or those types of activities?

Ian Kingstone  33:58  
Yeah, to kind of go back to your earlier question, you said, if you've got any good examples, of, of communications, the one one of the techniques I love to use is day in the life of for, for helping to bring change to live for people. So essentially, what that is, for those that don't know is, is you kind of take your one of your stakeholder groups that you've done your change impact assessment on and you then kind of paint a visual picture of what that world is going to be like for them, post the change going in. So it could be that you've got your, your person on site, or you collect your truck driver or we know operative, somebody, finance whatever, and just say like this, these are the key things that's going to be different. So instead of writing a purchase order on a pad of paper, you're now going to be doing a requisition in a system that's going to go to someone to approve and, and usually, you know again, getting creative getting very visual to kind of Bring these these things to life will work really well, in my experience, because you're being specific. And you know, we can even get to the point where you can treat these as a bunch of personas.

Ian Kingstone  35:10  
Yeah, and I think I think where that works well, especially if you've got a project where, or programme where there's some benefits, then you can show them the benefits to them. Yeah, sustain life for them. So purchase one's a good one, in the sense of, you could have it so that you're still doing a requisition. But actually, because it's under a certain amount of value. With the new solution, you now don't need to get it authorised? Yeah, you've got a set set of suppliers or whatever. So you can get your your things quicker, yeah, I'm gonna wait for your boss to sign it, absolutely, I'm gonna go and run a piece of paper somewhere, those types of things, which it might be quite useful to people are trying to get some things done and not really worried about how they purchase them all. Now they get signed off, they just need what they need to help the job get done, or whatever they're working on. So I think I think another example BHI, you know, a lot of a lot of solutions, we've put in a lot of help people with their, you know, doing their appraisals and their goal setting and things within the organisations that they're in solutions to help do that, when a manager might see that a stakeholder manager might see that as well. I've got to do all this other stuff now. But actually, there's some benefits to that. And if maybe there see the other benefits, because a day in the life of could look like a lot of work. Yeah. But you've got to show that day in the life I guess with that, then when you come to this, that's all done. This is already you know, these processes will get clear. Your your employees are engaged because they they're clear on what they're doing, and so on and so forth.

Ian Kingstone  36:54  
And that's not like skirt around this, I think, you know, we're we're paying very proactive pages here that wasn't that this change is wonderful. Isn't it a great and an amazing lie, the world that you're going to enter into is going to be fantastic, but less than let's be realistic that it's not always like that for people. Right? Sometimes the change for individuals or teams can be quite negative thing for them, because it could be redundancy. It could be

Ian Kingstone  37:22  

Ian Kingstone  37:23  
yeah. Or the workload has shifted from one place to another let's move

Ian Kingstone  37:26  
you probably remember this because I've sent you out there for for a while 

Ian Kingstone  37:29  
Oh Scotland

Ian Kingstone  37:31  
the gatehouse and Bargeddie you know the two ladies in their 12 hour rambunctious they were brilliant they dealt with lorry coming in lorrys going out all the "troopers" absolute work really hard, we turn up so we're going to change the way you're gonna have to scan this you're gonna have a thing that am I going to reach into the caps do how they're going to sign for that. I just let them through. I know it sounds so so low to change that was coming at them that we were completely messing with the way they've worked for many years very successfully. Yet we needed it to now work that way. I prefer other benefits that probably didn't really land in the gatehouse about getting Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  38:10  
And how are we engaging with those two Weighbridge operators? to work up a solution that works? Yeah, yeah. Cuz they were It wasn't your typical weighbridge situation? was it? It

Ian Kingstone  38:23  
was just it was the commerce we did for them. Yeah. Back to the subject was was we went and spent some time just I actually spent some time in the gatehouse No, no, you did, and, and then and work with them to then serve our communication that was very face to face. I'm not saying that we can always do that. But we knew that was an area that needed that type of comms to start with personal got them involved, ask them questions about which comes on now, we're not talking about that in this episode. But it feeds in this is why this is in the execution cycle of communications

Ian Kingstone  38:57  
completely, completely, and, and the whole communications and education, they really go hand in hand. Because you know, in order to make someone capable of doing something, they need to be aware of it and be engaged in it. So you really need to tee them up before you kind of get them through and that's why I do like the Day in the Life off. kind of approach it it does kind of help bridge the gap sometimes between a written that attacks or PowerPoint presentation to you know, process education, which is then kind of the feed into an act right

Ian Kingstone  39:34  
and the thing I always didn't like about that which you can do in life probably helps with is you don't do these when you do training and education quite often you're learning to do things not necessarily in the day in the way you would do them on a day to day basis. So you might not do the requisition and receive the goods. Yeah, on the same day, you might different goods but not the same goods. So So yeah, I think the day in the life of can kind of, maybe Nick helped out a bit as well. So he does bring it to, this is more realistic towards command, again, you

Ian Kingstone  40:07  
get creative, right? Let's get people in a room, and you know, bring a ball in. And then the ball is kind of like, way on the process. And they gave it give everyone roles in planning process, stop throwing the ball around to where it goes in and get them to do parts of the process, even if you acting it out. And it might feel a bit silly, doing this kind of stuff, but sometimes just kind of prototyping that, in a physical way can really help, you know, if this is gonna work.

Ian Kingstone  40:34  
Yeah, and I think maybe not in the COVID. To help that the Yeah, certainly we'll get back to that kind of thing. That I suppose the thing we haven't talked about, and communication is either been some situations where we know some changes of Ghana mean, some restructuring. Yeah, it's going to affect people's job seeker. Think about when was this communicated to where, so you can manage and work with HR and all the right people to help people through that change? Because that can be quite, you know,

Jonathan Parnaby  41:09  

Ian Kingstone  41:10  
Yeah, exactly. So, obviously, we identify that early on in the process. So we know which there's areas that we we do need to deal with that in a sensitive way.

Ian Kingstone  41:20  
Yeah, it is part of the the joys of comms isn't that you've got the good stuff, and you've got them, then, you know, they're not so good stuff. But the the importance of linking up with hoto will people department early, ideally, when the change Impact Assessments kind of completed, is crucial. Because if you know that, you know, our restructure is part of the change, or maybe it's the entirety of the change, then, yeah, that that HR representative that's kind of assigned to support or business partner or whatever they're kind of called in, in your organization's, they're there to kind of help you guide you. And, and this is kind of good to work out how you're going to work with HR. Because, you know, there are some legal things that they need to do that they're aware of us, they're their world, that they wouldn't want a programme team just firing off, you know, communications left, right and centre, because it would you know, jeopardise the the organization's position legally. So, yeah, it's just really working out how you're going to do it together. But usually, you know, HR will, will gladly, you know, gladly get the support from the programme team with the information they have, especially from from all those impacts and stuff so, so yeah, you can kind of build that plan out with them. And, again, sensitivity is the key, right? If you know, an area that businesses is, you know, gonna be impacted by that negative change, then just be sensitive around it. And not even if it's directly to them, but to others or the functions just you got to be aware and he got

Ian Kingstone  43:02  
part of the program's analysis great and wicked, we're doing all this stuff and

Ian Kingstone  43:06  
part of the money we're saving

Ian Kingstone  43:08  
Yeah, no part of the programme is thinking I don't know what's going to hit me but I know it's not going to be good you know, and I know that it's going to change the way we work and I don't really understand that Yeah, I'm kind of worried about it.

Ian Kingstone  43:21  
But it's about being clear with people as well and not stringing people along and you know, if this is something that's going to happen they got to understand why even if it negatively impacts them you know have been made redundant so have you by understood why it was happening? Yeah, I got the why. And so I accepted quicker my own different people will accept those kind of changes at different rates, right, depending on the on a personal makeup, personalities, all that kind of stuff. But generally, you know, I look back at that that experience for me, personally, I think was the greatest thing ever happened.

Ian Kingstone  43:56  
Where I've been made redundant twice. Yeah, I made myself redundant because that was the best option. The point was to get the work done that they no longer needed me.

Ian Kingstone  44:04  
Yeah. But you got why and you can't Okay, fair enough and move on and, and as horrible and crap as it was at the time. We did meet up. And it's the same for those people. But you know, don't don't become counsellors. That's obviously do a job. But take advice every time.

Ian Kingstone  44:25  
That stuff Yeah, and then do it.

Ian Kingstone  44:37  
I think It's question time. So let's have a look at what questions we've got this this week. Oh, this is a good one. And what considerations should you cover when you change when when your change is focused on cost cutting. So what considerations should you cover when your changes focused on cost cutting

Jonathan Parnaby  45:00  
Yeah, that's how I met you one, isn't it? Yeah. Thanks. Who said that one? No do we have a name

Ian Kingstone  45:05  
It's anonymous? So, okay, yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  45:09  
Thanks anonymous?

Jonathan Parnaby  45:11  
Yeah. Well, firstly, let's try and get non anonymous questions and we want to shout out who you are, you know, we want, we want the person at our table to be announced that we want to know the people. But fair enough, we got the question. And so that's good. What consideration should you cover when you change focus on cost cutting? Well, I think instantly my head from a change management point of view obviously, goes to the people, right. So the considerations should always be the people and how they're impacted and affected by that cost cutting. And obviously, it will just depend on what the project or programme is trying to do in regards to the cost cutting, and therefore what the impacts are on the individuals and teams in the organisation. But really, the considerations are, I think, is how do we support the people through that change? How do we, how do we ensure that they know why there's a cost cutting exercise? Yeah, so they can actually get the answer to that question. I think, fundamentally, if there's going to be a team that's going to be made redundant off the back of that or reorganisation to, to help save, you know, 2 million or whatever it is, people need to understand why. And actually, if we if that wasn't done, what would be the future? So could it be that the company needs to do it to survive? Is it a survival thing is a strategic thing. And not everyone's gonna win in that conversation, no one's gonna kind of be, you know, jumping up and down with joy, to be honest, but it needs to be managed, and it needs to be considered. And I just think that this is where, you know, in the kind of changing part world, you should have kind of these impacts categorised with, you know, organisational design, impacts. And this is why also HR and any representatives and HR should be working hand in hand with so you preparing those people and giving them all the information that they need, giving them all the support that they need. So that's kind of where my head's gone with that question, then what you think,

Ian Kingstone  47:11  
I think the same thing, I think you've got to have clarity on where you're going to cut the costs to, and that those those involved in that change, need to know there's clarity on where those expected costs cutting, because then you can manage HR people, you can manage the impact, change impact. So I think it's really important from to help the change element is the initiative or programme or whatever it is project has got clarity on where they're expecting to cut costs to, you know, because otherwise, yeah, you're wrong. if nobody's got any clarity of where they're going to remove costs, then surface a bit. If it's done that, we'll we'll find some ways of current costs by changing this. And by changing that, I think then there's a lot of uncertainty. And that that doesn't help the change journey for those people. So I think, I think although it's not strictly change, the clarity needs to be there to support change in allowing them to understand that change journey, and then support people in that same sort of space in between, you're saying really, I think it's, it's around looking at what that means for people when it's cost cutting, doesn't always necessarily mean it's about people. It doesn't mean it might be that, that would get reduced the cost of storing something, because we're moving it quicker or whatever. But but but that's the important thing. Where are we going to find these cost savings? And who does it impact?

Ian Kingstone  48:52  
Yeah, I think also, the other thing that kind of springs to mind is, you know, like you said, sometimes the cost cutting is not about a team or people or actually making anyone redundant, or, you know, going through that, that kind of horrible situation where sometimes has to be done. It could be that, you know, the changing office buildings. So one last bite, and actually now might seem on paper, my simple thing, and we're going to office here, and then we're moving to this office there and the maybe the new office isn't as nice, maybe because it's cheaper than the rent and it's a different part of town or a city. And actually, that's not to be underestimated how that impacts people, obviously, with logistics, of getting getting people from A to B but also just the fact that the environment is changed. And, you know, I've heard on change programmes that deal with these kind of office moves that actually people kind of go through a mourning period like I want to say morning it means that morning and this morning, as in mourning, of grief because they obviously losing an old way losing something. And I've heard that yes, I'm change Graham's like, like, for example, if the the offices they're moving from had a nice kind of courtyard with, you know garden flowers and plants, they were allowed to take some of those to the new office just to have a piece of the, you know, the old kind of environments, take it with them. And in on paper, you might think, Well, that sounds a bit bit random, but you can kind of get into the the psychology of it, can't you with the individuals and actually, if you put yourself in their shoes, it is different. And they might not like the new office. And it's all different. It's change and all the kitchens in a different place if the governor the flight of stairs or whatever. It's it's not to be underestimated how that can impact performance, especially early bonds. Yeah,

Ian Kingstone  50:45  
well, I think we'll see a lot of that there's been some big change in the workplace in the last year, and so yeah, okay. Okay. Well, I think that, yeah, I think it's difficult to without understanding where the cost is, like I say, I think it's difficult to get any further detail wrapped around that, but understand the cost where the journey, and then you can approach the change journey, and how to deal with it. And then what, like,

Jonathan Parnaby  51:10  
we answered the question, whoever you are.

Ian Kingstone  51:19  
Okay, so we've we've talked through pretty much all the different types of communications, we've give some examples and the likes, we've, we've dipped a little bit into education and engagement. And I think that's where we're going with the next next episode. Is that right?

Ian Kingstone  51:34  
Yeah, and absolutely, and we kind of mentioned earlier, that capability building, you know, education training, is a massively important piece, just as communications is in helping with the change. You know, if someone's aware of change, that's great. But if they don't have the capability to change, then you're going to be in trouble, especially when it comes to those benefits that you want to kind of realise. So. Yeah, looking forward to getting into that conversation.

Ian Kingstone  52:02  
Okay, great. Well, until next time, yeah, see

Ian Kingstone  52:05  
you all next time. It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the veer and butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation.

Ian Kingstone  52:16  
yet so you can contact us at the website So that's There you will find show notes on everything we've talked about in today's show or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's

Jonathan Parnaby  52:37  
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.

What have we been up to?
Awareness and engagement
You can't over do it
Communication channels
Comms and culture
Control rooms
Day in the life of
Comms and education
Sensitive communications
Question time
Last orders