Beer & Butterfly

Season 1 - Episode 7: "That's great, but how do I use it again?"

April 07, 2021 Ian Kingstone & Jonathan (JP) Parnaby Season 1 Episode 7
Beer & Butterfly
Season 1 - Episode 7: "That's great, but how do I use it again?"
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

With the new IPA's installed at the bar, Ian & JP continue exploring the change execution areas by discussing "Education & Training".  Ian & JP discuss about learning new skills during lockdown with Ian finally finishing his limestone wall and JP putting 4 tiles up (ok we know Ian's was more impressive).  The pair finish their conversation visiting the Naked Gun films and 80s pop culture & wallpaper.  Our hosts continue to explore the importance of education & training in relation to change management by stepping through the important layers of the training strategy.

  • 00:00 - Intro
  • 01:17 - What have we been up to?
  • 10:00 - Examples of poor training
  • 13:38 - Training focused on tech only!
  • 17:30 - Holistic training strategy
  • 19:07 - Breaking down the strategy for training
  • 22:34 - Theme 1 - The goal of training
  • 25:34 - Theme 2 - The who & training needs
  • 28:36 - Theme 3 - Types of training
  • 35:33 - Theme 4 - Training planning
  • 39:21 - Theme 5 - Budget & resources
  • 43:24 - Theme 6 - Logistics
  • 47:15 - Question time
  • 54:44 - Last orders

Ian Kingstone  0:00  
Well what you having then Jonathan,

Jonathan Parnaby  0:05  
pint please mate 

Ian Kingstone  0:06  
two points, please landlord

Jonathan Parnaby  0:08  
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting then?

Ian Kingstone  0:11  
Over there? sat at that table over there? 

Jonathan Parnaby  0:13  
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them?

Ian Kingstone  0:18  
we're just gonna tell him it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:23  
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there? Who have we got

Ian Kingstone  0:27  
some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:33  
Cool. Fantastic. Well, let's crack on. Let's get over there.

Ian Kingstone  0:35  
Welcome to the Beer and Butterfly

Jonathan Parnaby  0:37  
a podcast where we talk transformation.

Ian Kingstone  1:03  
I'm in Kingstone.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:05  
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.

Ian Kingstone  1:06  
And we're your hosts.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:09  
In today's episode, we talk about how we provide impacted stakeholders with the capabilities to change through education and training. 

Jonathan Parnaby  1:17  
So Ian what you been to mate?

Ian Kingstone  1:21  
Well, I'd love to say all these grandure things that I've been doing recently, but to be really honest with you, it's been a bit of work stay at home, obviously, because of the the lockdown and things like that. And quite a lot of work. So So which is a good thing really, really, really positive? and can't really argue with that. But it means that from a from a non work perspective, not great deal. The good thing that I'm really pleased about though, is that that I don't think I talked to about in last even though it's some time since I've done it is I did finish doing the the wall

Jonathan Parnaby  1:58  
about literally about to ask you about the limestone wall

Ian Kingstone  2:03  
get and and I did get it to a stage this, there's always more to do, right? Yeah, get it to a stage where it's, it's in a good, you say it's safe, it's repaired, it's done properly. And I've got to say I'm actually quite proud of it. So because it's one of those things that I can kind of take. And it's also a thing now that I know because it's a big wall. And it was any part that I was doing, repairing. But it's also now something that I know I can do that I don't need to get a man in to help me with the wall in the future. If there's a problem, I can do it myself and do it properly in the traditional way, which is which is really what, what I quite enjoyed about doing it. So that's just a little bit of kind of a side news, I guess

Jonathan Parnaby  2:50  
no, I can completely kind of relate to that, although this is on a much lesser scale. And this wasn't even recent, this is a few months ago. I mean, you know, during the first lockdown and when I had my list of many different DIY items that I was doing, like literally just to keep myself sane, I had a false or we've got a false mini wall that kind of covers our boiler pipes. And it's all tiled. It basically is wood from it's all got tiles around it so it blends into the other tile wall and make it sound grand, it really is just two bits of wood bolted together. There's about an a foot height now even that and some of the towers have fallen off a lot I've never tiled before I'm don't and what I'm doing and I think over the kind of summer months I thought you know what, I'll give it a go because like it's only like this, this false bit of what the hell could go wrong and and you know, it took me a while because I was making the adhesive up and then you know, sticking the the tiles back on and doing the grout and everything and then when I put it back, the top two tiles are caught and they fell off and out to redo those. swearing a lot as you do with these little things. But like I got I got to the point like got it done. And I was like you as I I was chuffed with that as I'ves never done that before. When you tell people it's like yeah, I put four tiles up I'm a warrior

Ian Kingstone  4:16  
to achieve something that's perhaps different and develop a new type of skill and if you want even though our small or whatever it is, and it's also home pride, isn't it? I think I think we'll get a little bit that way at the moment in in the while they might as well do things on their home if they can and they can afford to do it. So. Yeah, no, I totally relate to that.

Jonathan Parnaby  4:37  
But yeah, I mean, just that little when you know and it kind of relates today's episode theme really because it's like you know, is a skill that I hadn't didn't have a try to do it. Okay, I wasn't trained in it. No one really taught me how to do a model three and watch some YouTube videos and you know little things and read the instructions about 5000 times And which is hard, right? Because when you're doing tiling, you'd make a massive batch of adhesive or grout. And I only needed, like the tiniest, tiniest amounts because I was putting four tiles back, you know? But yeah, no, it's just that satisfaction that actually I learned something. And I then I now feel more confident to try it again. Maybe I'll do five tiles, maybe even 10. Who knows? You know, that kind of thing. But no. Before kind of jumping into, into the meat of the conversation of what's the what's in the box? Yeah, watch the Naked Gun the other night. Talk about old school films, right?

Ian Kingstone  5:39  
Yeah, the sound was forgotten it existed, but it's constrained back in my mind.

Jonathan Parnaby  5:46  
I'm not even like, I think the last time I watched that film was I must have been a teenager. Yeah, what he's like over 20 years ago, and I'm sitting there going, I kinda remember this and I don't kind of recall exactly what's going to happen was

Ian Kingstone  6:03  
it was it like,

Jonathan Parnaby  6:06  
actually watched both both of them the first and second one to be filmed? Was

Ian Kingstone  6:09  
it really like with that? Because when I when I watched it, obviously then and you you remember the scenes if you if you do, but I wouldn't remember it? I probably remember a couple of scenes. And a couple of the, the lines if you want. I can't think of exactly one. But but

Jonathan Parnaby  6:24  
I can think of one but I'm not saying it on the podcast.

Ian Kingstone  6:26  
Yeah. I'm thinking, but there's several so it could be different. But was it really like a crass? Was it really like? Did he did you still find it kind of funny? Or was it dated and not

Jonathan Parnaby  6:44  
It's dated? Going if you showed it to? I suppose people are the younger generation. They might find it quite offensive. Because of it's era. You know, it's kind of 80s and the second one's in early 90s. But it's tongue in cheek as well. So it's Yeah, I think you can still get away with it. It's a bit like Airplane, isn't it? Back in the 70s. I think that's worse.

Ian Kingstone  7:11  
Yeah, no.

Jonathan Parnaby  7:13  
But it's a classic, you know, it's just I just remember having some good fun kind of belly laughs watching that film as a kid and even probably missing a lot of the adult undertones which there are a lot in that film just found

Ian Kingstone  7:28  
that actually, that's quite interesting. Isn't it not thought about that until now. But but it's probably quite interesting to see that now and United States with different time the different kinds of culture, but it's quite I think it's quite nice to see that the mic, you know, I don't know. I think it's quite nice to see that. Some of those things you'd think couldn't be done today? Well, I think because that shows a step improvement in some of the areas as a human race or as entertainment as taken actually. Do you see what I mean? And that maybe not fast enough. And I agree, but But do you know what I mean, it it does demonstrate that which is quite interesting. Okay, so you've been to the oldies.

Ian Kingstone  8:11  
Great, brilliant. 

Jonathan Parnaby  8:12  
Something to do with it.

Ian Kingstone  8:13  
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is fun, isn't it, you flick through. Now we've got it all accessible our fingertips. technology, which is great. But that how you you still flip through to you know, those and now you go back and backtrack. I've done it with music a lot more lately than I have with movies. But But yeah, I've really gone back to the 70s and 80s to stuff that you know, well known but then gone back on the music like Bowie and things like that, you know, so you kind of Yeah, which is all great, you know to do maybe I'm getting old but I still think it was better then Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  8:54  
I think it's a lot of styles. in play. There isn't as like I always find the 80s a comfortable era. And it's probably because I was a kid during that time, and I've got a lot of fond memories, you know, around the music, maybe maybe not the wallpaper. But I always remember my parents having this really, like weird wallpaper is like seashells but it was kind of like it was like I say 3d but it kind of popped out and it was like if you press the seashells they kind of were squishy. And just really strange and it

Ian Kingstone  9:27  
sounds more 60s than 80s.

Jonathan Parnaby  9:29  
Maybe parents parents weren't up in the era goodbyes My mum used to tell me off so much for like keep pressing these seashells on the wall and making dents in them which is like just get off them lovely brown carpet But anyway, that's that's the 80s wasn't it? It's just random. There we go. Let's Let's probably wrap this conversation up because I'll probably spend the podcast talking about 80s a Naked Gun and which might be entertaining.

Ian Kingstone  10:00  
So today is all about training, education, getting, you know, the impact getting our stakeholders ready with the right capabilities for the change that is going on. And lining that up. So have you had a business problem a project where a lack of training or education or, or getting people ready skills wise, has has, has really, you know, you've had a problem with that, or you've seen a problem with that where it's not really happened in the right way?

Jonathan Parnaby  10:30  
Yeah, I think most of them is always a default answer, isn't it? We talk about that we had a previous programme or project where we've not, or seen something done properly yeah all of them. But now I'm not training from the one I think the one that come jumps on the forefront of my mind, and it wasn't necessarily done badly. Because at least they did training, right. So that deck, but it's not, it's not fully intact, because it was a small ERP implementation across the UK and the US, right, which sounds grand, but it was four sides to the UK to the west. And essentially, they plan training and retraining was more just a broad brush approach, right? So it's kind of like, we're gonna do these two days before we go live. And then everyone knows what they need to do. And that's it all good. Yeah. And that's kind of what they did rinse and repeat. A number of times, which I think worked, okay, in the UK, and in the US, didn't work great. Because, well, surprise, surprise, the project team wasn't based in the US and therefore, access to information knowledge. Was was a lot harder. Yeah. So two is kind of this. The good thing is they plan to train, awesome, happy with that, that negatives, I suppose, where they didn't consider the different stakeholders, the different needs, kind of the different skill set levels of their employees are across the business, and then kind of change their strategy and approach to fit. Alright, so I remember when I landed on that that particular programme, when I came to kind of recover the ERP, because I won't bore you, but a lot of problems not just painting, but just generally with the system. And the fact that they kind of delivered half a system and ran away and did something else somewhere else. But one of the feedbacks I got when I joined was that the training wasn't great. So we kind of just went back to basics with it and, you know, looked at how can we do something quickly? Normally, you know, we'll have a lot more time and do these things properly. But I said, Well, what kind of online materials have the US got access to? Because like, it's all well, and good. You guys been out there for a week and flying to the US? And it's a great time, I'm sure. But what happens when you go home? Yeah, well, access to information to the house was the documentation. Is there e learning? Is there videos, instruction, all that kind of stuff. So we actually invested in a lot of of that kind of materials just to help bug a bit of a gap on the training? God, if I was there, from the beginning, it would do the things that we're going to talk about later in the episode. But yeah, what about you?

Ian Kingstone  13:24  
Yeah, I've seen all sorts. And like you say, I could, I could, I could name a few, I could say problems across most programmes or projects that I've seen. I think, I think what I've seen is certainly through transformation that's underpinned by technology. I've seen that the training is focused on the technology, even if the training is done well, it's focused on the technology on process change, or aligning people to how that's going to change the way they work, and who they work with, not so much. Just allow the technology is going to help me do this, it's going to do that. This is going to be automated, you know, and this is how you do these things. The whole piece for the ones it mean to me, what does it mean to this team? What this means this group, how do we work together, that kind of process is where the handoffs, you know, and especially in organisations where we we put technology into break down silos, you know, we ERP type, technology transformation, if you want. And so I've seen, I've not seen a lot of area in actual I've seen quite a lot of technology training, but not enough around in most most cases, not enough around the process, change the people centric side of what's going to happen in that transformation. And thought through about how we make sure that the right capabilities, so some of these roles can change that, that, that, you know, are we helping them develop their capabilities for not just technically in it or technology skills, but in maybe other sets of skills that they might need to use, like, they're now working with more people remotely or different groups. And so that we give, you know, have, we helped them develop in more of a kind of a virtual working environment and so on.

Jonathan Parnaby  15:34  
So common sizes, things are a longer comment, that kind of just jumped in my mind, right then around virtual working was, you know, was talking about this literally the other day, and how, you know, seeing the old physical work and happy to kind of book in meetings for, you know, for four hours, and then you know, things are kind of back to back. And, and, and that was kind of the norm but obviously a virtual, you kind of have this back to back calendar of meetings where you're literally jumping off one and jumping onto the next and you don't you know, you've got time to have comfort breaks, or just have a cup of tea sometimes, because you're literally bouncing from teams calls to zoom calls to things are back again, and actually just having a kind of think about all kind of like a policy. And then as far as the events, the training on, actually, I mean, should be 15 minutes of the hour. So actually get five minutes beforehand, five minutes afterwards, to kind of or even a 10 minute overlap or whatever, to have those little mini breaks just to have a walk around, get a cup of tea, sort yourself out

Ian Kingstone  16:38  
to a screen that stuff.

Jonathan Parnaby  16:40  
Yeah, just always you just eight hours, you just constantly chained to the videos. Anyway, sorry to interrupt.

Ian Kingstone  16:47  
No, no, no, isn't it right, that's a change that's happened. It's happened quite rapidly. For a lot of people. Some of us have been working away for a while, but it's still the impact on the other people have driven those down around more of that, whether you did it before or not. And I think that in itself is a change, you know, and Okay, we probably haven't had the opportunity for training in that, although some organisations have. And I think that's that's exactly that the point, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I think where we were, you know, when we look at change, and training and education for that change, and how we help the stakeholders impacted by that change, through that, you know, their capabilities. I think, in an ideal world, if you know that change is going to happen, then, you know, we should be looking at training strategy. We should be, you know, what do we need to train, it needs to be quite holistic across the changes that are happening, not just technology. And that's, we really need to think about the changes that are happening and what what, what, what's the strategy of how we're going to manage trading, and it's done. So I don't see it often done? Well, certainly not at the beginning. And I still see it. And and to be fair, probably hadn't spent enough time on it myself on on the business case side of things or thinking about budget. Really think about budget and things like that, if you haven't really thought about strategy, if you haven't really thought about what we're good at what types of training and things we're going to need to do. So training strategy, I think is absolutely key. In the whole change management process or educational strategy to have your whatever you want to, you know, how you want to position it, but how'd you how'd you up, up and the skills or help the people who are going through that change it needs to be people centric? Right? And so, just by the nature of it, so, you know, it's kind of how do we how do we really spend a bit more time doing that, and understanding the training? So, you know, let's talk a bit about training strategy. I mean, I think that's quite an important piece.

Jonathan Parnaby  18:58  
Absolutely. I think that's the starting line. And, you know, if we kind of just roll, run back to the change framework conversation, just very briefly, the you know, the strategy or actually kind of come at the beginning part of how you're going to approach this and, and essentially, you kind of need those impacts, again, you bring that change in pacbell. Because the impacts are going to tell you obviously, what the impacts are to people and especially around capability and and where we might have gaps in capabilities in order to obviously get out teams and people through through that change. So really, at that point, once we start to understand that landscape, that strategy should start to form and typical things kind of in the strategy in my mind, and this isn't an exhaustive list that says you should always have these things, but in general, we should always know what the goal is, right? We should know what the mission is for the training, what's the why, why are we doing it? And that's quite an important thing and borloo back and cover these in a bit more detail, but we also need to know who's going to be trained. I know sounds so obvious, but who will not not just we just need to train everyone, but actually with the different stakeholder groups in there, who specific needs training and on what, right, because it's not always a one size fits all, which is actually, the kind of broad brush approach that I see all the time is that we're going to train everybody on this system. And everybody goes through it. And like, you know, 60 70% of that content is irrelevant to some people. So what are we doing? Yeah, what what type of training deliveries needed to accomplish those goals and missions? So again, that example I used with the US stakeholders, you know, is it always going to be physically lead? Is it going to be virtual digital? or What the What's the kind of tools that we're going to use in our toolkit? And how much time has been allocated for training within the organisation? There's also a key question.

Ian Kingstone  20:57  
For me that budget one is about money. But quite often, you're challenged later on, by money, and training gets hit. Yeah, so if you've got a programme or a project that's got a budget, that's, you know, it gets very more challenging then to say why you needed to change the budget, or whatever. And I see a lot of training, get get shortchanged if you want, because our when this has taken longer, and it's cost us more than we thought it was gonna cost and then therefore, you know, and we'd never allocate enough money for, for training in in the first place. Yeah, I think that's a really important one to get right up at the front. And if he hadn't got that strategy, how are you going to how you're going to even perceive what that's likely to be? Okay. It's

Jonathan Parnaby  21:49  
kind of like the conversation we had a few weeks ago with the midseason break, wasn't it? Because, you know, when you're at the start of the transformation, and you're trying to put for that budget off, this is what I need, and like, say changed can generally get shortchanged. Anyway, training obviously falls part of that, that kind of theme. And, and yeah, and if you if you've got a kind of grand plan, and a grand budget for training, and the kind of senior stakeholders don't understand why you need that, then yeah, it's always a risk and slashed and then suddenly your, your goal and mission and objective is at risk. Yeah. So yeah, let's start let's go into these themes in a bit more detail. And so goals and mission, the Why will we start with why anyway, it's always a good place to start. So yeah, I think, I think that's so key. And, again, the reason for that is back to benefits, but the value, the reason why we want to train people is not to tick a box to say we've trained them, and then how has good we've done it. Now the reason that we want to train people is to unlock value in the organisation. Just like we want to change people just like we're not doing anything, we want to unlock that value. And anytime you compromise on any of those aspects, you're putting value at risk, in my opinion. I mean, what kinds of goals and missions are kind of there? Well, they're all encompassing, but we may want to improve quality. And in what we're doing, within our processes, we might want to increase productivity and efficiency either get through, get the throughput, increased and actually deliver more, we might want to increase safety. Now there may be maybe our accident rates are too high, and people are getting injured. And we need to prevent that, you know, things like that.

Ian Kingstone  23:45  
And I'm glad you kind of mentioned value there because, you know, I often look across something probably mentioned before I look across value in, in across a transformation, so to speak, is no value to the customer, and customer, right the way through if you want value to driving value through efficiencies is often part of the transformation. Also driving value to the employee, the people who work there, and actually, if you drive value to the employee often are driving value to the customer anyway, because they're the people that work with customers, right? So so you know that safety one's really actually quite a big one. And I've seen it a lot in the manufacturing industries and utility industry that we worked in, you know it but not that never pulled through at the front end of the transformation of value. So you've got to try to drive that back down then into and that whole strategy so that you're dead, right, I think you need to use the overall vision and value of the transformation, and then look down at the training and say so all of this change is happening to drive this value. And that should really drive out across a wider set of values not not benefits in the sense of financial benefits, value to the new value to the organisation and its people.

Jonathan Parnaby  25:05  
Yeah, absolutely. Like I say it doesn't always have to be tangible can be intangible. And yeah, you're right with the reason why we do this is for the best for people. Training is all about people. It's not about cleaning robots. It's not training human beings. And that is a skill in its own right. But yeah, I think I just think start with the why understand why we're doing and it's always good to keep refreshing and asking that question. And then say, what do we want to get out of our training? Right? What's the purpose? I think once you kind of got that nailed, then look at who, and you don't back to your you change impacts, and you got to change journeys, you should already have an idea of what the study, you know, who the stakeholders are, how many of them there are in the organisation who's impacted, what how they impacted from a capability point of view. And I always like to ensure that we do some form of training needs analysis, right? Or TNA is another three letter acronym for the list. And essentially, for those that don't know what a TNA or training needs analysis is, it's, it's a review of what skills are currently in the organisation? And more importantly, what skills aren't, that relate to what's needed for the change to happen or for the, for the for the business to be able to achieve its objective. And an example of this actually was in a waste recycling company, where we both worked in in was a lot of the work to buy the CRP transmission that we were doing my if we remember our non, it enabled employees. Yeah. And certainly, you know, we were asking some of those employees, especially ones driving collections drugs, to, to basically start interfacing with incap device. And some of these people had never, you know, touch technology, don't even have an email address. And it's alien to them so that as a as a capability gap is quite big. Actually, you know, in our TNA, we recognise that there was a massive gap. And we needed to plug that as part of the training. So we can't just go Hey, guys, I used the device, Fred. and off you go is actually we need to roll back and get about the basics and say, This is technology. Well, welcome to technology, and this is kind of how you use it and actually upskill them which, you know, obviously benefits the the the transformation, but I think it benefits them as well, just in general how their grandchildren or engaging with different people and actually not being afraid of it. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Ian Kingstone  27:47  
And I think that's it is there's that whole whole piece around not being afraid in that particular scenario. And I saw that in the paper industry as well in the lot of technology in the paper industry, but papermakers get look at screens and do things but they don't necessarily never have to use things when technology came into paper making really, really changed the way that they they had to do and what they had to do and it was fear. Yeah, I don't want to do something wrong. I don't wanna press the wrong thing. I don't want to make you know, stop a whole paper machine. You know, Ain't No, you can't.

Jonathan Parnaby  28:24  
Yeah, the favourite breaking things, isn't it? So yeah, so I think that that kind of TNA training needs analysis is is kind of key, understand the landscape a bit further understand kind of what you need to plug in any kind of links then to Okay, well, what's the type of training? And then do I want to deliver kind of like your channels, I suppose, in? And how are you going to get that training across to those different individuals, and again, a high level from your change journeys, like we talked about earlier in the season, you will kind of cover what kinds of training needs to happen against those different stakeholders, but we probably haven't understood at what type of training we need to deliver. What I mean by that is, you know, is this kind of be? Is it just the process education session that people need to run through? Is it an instructor led classroom with modules of, you know, you need to go through these four modules, and then you know, what you're doing? You know, is it? Is it the, you know, on the job, where someone sits with the person and goes through around the shifts to they actually learn, you know, is it kind of more that kinesthetic learning, rather than the kind of other styles? Is e learning?

Jonathan Parnaby  29:30  
You know,

Jonathan Parnaby  29:30  
are we going to do all this online for people to access in their own time or through their lunch or we're going to allow people to kind of spend an hour of their day going through their tutorials, videos case that, you know, they're not exclusive here, but I think it's good to think of the delivery type. So that we know Okay, this group is going to get instructor led, this group is going to get both instructor led and E learning this group is going to get on the job training or whatever and actually, think about that. And then to kind of look holistically and say, are all my stakeholders that are impacted by this change? Are they covered? And not just kind of just make it up? Also use those control rooms again, ask them get back with the change champions, you know, that's what they're for.

Ian Kingstone  30:17  
And yeah, although different, you know, different elements of different different different types of training, different delivery methods used for the same people, maybe even the same subject. So you're not just saying, well, this group of people elearning is going to be best for them? Well, no, actually, this group of people elearning and, and some classroom training, they can pick do both, or what they need to get. And yeah, exactly,

Jonathan Parnaby  30:47  
yeah, we all learn differently, right? He has really had this conversation with my daughter, who she struggles in school. Not not in general, she's such a great kids, but she struggles when a teacher is reading a story out. And she struggles to follow it because she doesn't learn the best by listening and trying to interpret that information. And she learns best by reading it herself. Or, or by doing it lie be can't really kind of do kinesthetic with a book you either reading it or, or watching a video version of it, I suppose. But yeah, and, and she gets quite frustrated. And now we have this conversation. It's because you don't, that's not your favoured way of learning. You know, it's a bit like myself, I'm going to start putting the the geek alert back on, but it's a bit like when I you know, play a board game, right. And these these bloody things are really complex, right, and they come with a rulebook and you look through and go, Jesus Christ, my head hurts. And but you know, I learned by just playing it, muddling through doing it. And that's, that's the, how I learned. So I'm kinesthetic learner. And I think that's so important, you made a really good point is like, let's not just use a broad brush, even for that stakeholder group, let's give them options, so that you can manage it so that you can do e-learning of the same day. And you can choose,

Ian Kingstone  32:07  
actually, that's quite an interesting thing, because it's just bringing that out, that whole piece reminds me of a few projects I've worked on where there's been an assumption that testing can also be part of education. And, and it's, and it's quite ironic, because you need to test a system, for example, I'll get this group of people who are going to get a be using the system, and then I might give them some training, and then get them into testing and they'll learn the system. And there's good and bad to that, I think there's some good in that in the sense that they can learn. But they can also be a negative effect, because quite often, certainly early on, not all things are how they need to be. That's why you do testing, right, and then fix it and, and that can drive also a lack of confidence, then abilities of the system. And if you haven't trained people in process education, let's call it if you haven't trained people in while the changes that can happen before that testing, they're testing it thinking this isn't working, how we work today, not necessarily thinking how they need to. And that's the whole problem with testing, right, anyway. But but it just made me think of that in that different way that on the job type training, and where you do it. And I think that needs to be seriously thought through when you're looking at that training strategy as well.

Jonathan Parnaby  33:24  
Yeah, no, completely is a really good point that that testing is, is important. And we obviously need to get users involved in it. And there needs to be some form of training so they can test it. Yeah. So and even maybe that training kind of covers the fact that one, you're testing the system that's not ready. Really, that's the point you're testing it. So you can find the issues. Number two is there probably needs to be the education beforehand to kind of say, this is a different way work. And it's done on purpose. And actually don't don't raise that as an issue or defect when actually because they didn't know that they were changing.

Ian Kingstone  34:02  
That works for some people, right? Some people were very comfortable with ambiguity and okay with doing it and actually learn and be quite happy and quite excited about doing it that way. Whereas other people, you don't want to train them until it's till you know exactly how it's going to work in that particular technology scenario, because they just want someone to show them what to do and where they don't. the ins and outs. Because that's their best way of learning how to do something that again, it's understanding, it's understanding people and the stakeholders and who learns best in which way

Jonathan Parnaby  34:37  
there's kind of a bell curve isn't that of I forget what what is actually called. But you've kind of got and it's always always finds a bit offensive doesn't mean you've got the bottom and the laggards. Which is adoption, isn't it? It's about adoption of like new ways of working and technologies and stuff like that. Whereas you kind of got the the people, the front end who are always up for trying new things, even if they're A bit wonky. It's the new tack about them latest technology, the latest thing? You know, and it's kind of a mix, I think it's quite good to understand, especially in your testing, you know, you want people probably more at the front and the back end of that that,

Ian Kingstone  35:14  
certainly and yeah, yeah, I think I think it is, and it's understanding the stakeholder groups. Yeah, that's can be challenging as well, which then leads you back to stakeholder analysis, which we've talked about as well.

Jonathan Parnaby  35:29  
Alright, so let's, let's spin on a bit. So, yeah, one of the themes of our strategy is how much training time is being allocated from the business. So, you know, once you kind of building your, your kind of courses, and you're doing your design, and let's say, we are doing, you know, a variety of modules, and there's 20 courses we need to build and all of that stuff, we need to understand actually, how, how long are those courses? Are they half a day? Or they have full days, free days? You know, and then kind of model that against the the stakeholders who need to attend that. But also is, is understanding from the business how, how much time and can they afford to let people go on training, right, and this is something I think we faced quite a number of times is, you know, people want training, but also, people want to get the jobs done. And this tussle of well, is a compromise somewhere between the two isn't that because the business has to move forward. But we also need to invest in our people. So that actually, we can change it.

Ian Kingstone  36:30  
And I see this so often. And it's, it's interesting, it really, again, if you can think it out at the beginning, if you're in a 24, seven manufacturing organisation, and you're looking to do some training, and you're quite a large amount, at some point for some major changes, you're going to have to think about shift bringing people off shift to do training, the cost of that, because you still need people working in a 24, seven manufacturing companies section, you know, so, so so and that's just an example. But it's the same in a lot of organisations, so and so that becomes a kind of a budget thing, if you haven't got money there, how are you going to how are you going to bring people you know, and how you're going to change people shifts and things like that, and backfill for training, so to speak. And I think it it's difficult one to judge, certainly at the beginning when you're looking at budget, but but it's also about the organisation understanding the importance of the change, but managing, try not to manage a disruption in business as usual. So it becomes that challenge. And again, it to me, it comes down to that strategy and the thought through so you can plan for it. So you can really seriously think about making sure people have adequate training and the time to do adequate training, not being impacted by their day job, so to speak, because this is going to become part of their day job. And so it's really important that they don't disrupt it post the job. So so it's kind of having that mindset of not creating disruption is around good planning.

Jonathan Parnaby  38:17  
Absolutely. And again, the change network is completely vital in this conversation, you know, you need, you need that kind of negotiation between the programme of transformation and the business is on the receiving end. or hopefully, obviously the end but working with you to kind of work that out. And and you need to be organised or have your training team needs to be organised to understand. And also be flexible, as well, to make sure that this works for both parties, because we need to train it for obvious reasons. But yeah, we need to try and accommodate the business as well. Where we can and is a bit of a negotiation in those control rooms, to kind of work that out. And you know, different regions and different operational businesses might have different needs as well. All different sizes, some are bigger than others, so it'll take longer to train, some are smaller. And yeah, the whole logistics thing is, is probably episode one essay, right? But yeah, very much important. Okay, let's, let's kind of finish off the strategy conversation and read into the budget. So the training budget, that's basically kind of summarised at the beginning, then we have the importance of it, we obviously need a budget to do these things and things to consider on the top of my head is, you know, the development of the training itself. So we need to understand, you know, the resources that are required to develop training courses, the materials, test runs, you know, building either slide decks or physical.

Ian Kingstone  39:54  
That's so important UI. I mean, that budget side I think budgets really important to do that, but it's Having people on the change journey earlier on who might be helping build those materials, because it's, it's okay saying, you know, this is where we're going to, but sometimes it helps understanding where we're coming from help that training. So you know, just train and the amount of time and effort it takes around developing training materials. And if you think of what we just discussed around all the different maybe ways people learn, and therefore ways we might deliver training and education, that there is many different types of, of preparation tools. And, and prep, really, for the training and the coordination of all time,

Jonathan Parnaby  40:51  
big timing, you know, just the training materials themselves, you might be using a learning software, that's licenced costs that we need to consider, you know, and any other kind of systems that we use, meaning that which might be manual for PowerPoint slides, or it could be something more sophisticated, like recording screens on the ERP, as you usually go through the process and tracking and putting tooltips everywhere, those kind of things. So it just depends on that level of detail you want to go into, but training time as well. How many trainers do you need? How long is the training,

Ian Kingstone  41:29  
I found this really interesting, actually, Jonathan, because because quite often you want to deliver training as close to the transition point as possible. But don't forget, they don't have three months from when they were trained in a new way of working to do this new way of working that say. So you really want to keep the training as close to that transition point, when you've got some changes that are happening across a wide number of people, you've got to consider having lots of parallel training going otherwise, you're going to take three months to cover up all the training and the ones at the beginning. Again, I think that's it. So and so you know it, and I've seen a lot of because of systems and things changes happen at the beginning of the new year. And you have Christmas between, or some you know, you've got to figure out what holiday seasons you've got where and what types and if it's global, and what parts of the world Yeah, and why. And, you know, and so, you know, in the US, for example, thanksgiving quite often plays a big holiday, a different time of the year, it's you really got to consider not just the amount of training time and trainers, but how you might need to do increase the amount of trained trainers to deliver certainly large scale training. And you know, whether you need a third party assistant to do that training in that respect, because you're not going to have enough capability within your own organisation

Jonathan Parnaby  43:03  
hasn't the aggressiveness of your kind of rollout and transition, right. So if you're looking to kind of roll these things out, nationally, internationally, similar times, then you know, that the training, the training scale ramps up, and the costs would ramp up to kind of circumnavigate that. So that's always a consideration. Yeah, other thing to consider logistics as well. Yeah, yeah, how'd you get the trainer from site a to site B to site c today, and the costs involved in those expenses, and hotels and, and things like that, that you're going to get all the programmes going to get budgeted for? And that needs to be considered as well. And, yeah, the whole thing that the whole execution of that, you know, training exercises is a logistical masterpiece half the time. And it usually take someone's coordinator. Yeah, that's, that's something to consider. And then incentive programmes to actually there might be, and this wouldn't be true in all cases, but we might want to incentivize employees to attend that training. Yes, reasons. Now, it could be that we incentivize and backfill you know, from a monetary point of view, certain departments and functions to help them release those people to save costs. So it could be that, you know, maybe certain certain training is more optional, when we want to incentivize people to do it or whatever. That is just things to consider of how we can encourage people but yeah, budget is important. And But hopefully, he's he kind of listened to what we talked about, you know, trainings is a complex area, actually. And we've not just this

Ian Kingstone  44:43  
and that's what I think much trying to make. The point in the beginning of this conversation is, even myself in I'm sitting here now and we just had a conversation through training and I can't remember how many programmes I've spent a good deal of time on considering the training as much Trouble, the front end is perhaps should have. Yeah. Because when you actually because you always get bitten on it later and actually, you know, changes about people. And this is about getting people in the right place for change. So this is this is absolutely, fundamentally the centre of everything that you're trying to achieve to drive value. Right. And so, yeah, we probably never put enough on it. And I probably would be quite happy to say that that, you know, we should always think that we never put enough on it and do more and more on this area, because I think it is often missed. Yeah, I

Jonathan Parnaby  45:40  
think my final thoughts on this then really, just kind of summarise for me, is, obviously, it's a key part of change execution, my, it's, it's so fundamental in locking and unlocking that value that should be kind of derived from the outset. But also, you know, we talk about, we're gonna get training delivered before the transition. And actually, I kind of want to expand on that slightly, because I think, you know, training and support should cover, obviously, the transition, but it should extend past it as well. To consider only what you need to do upfront to get people ready. But what also do you need to do to support? which we'll cover in a later episode on post? Kind of Yeah, I guess, yeah. What access to materials to people have once training is all the trainers have done their logistical exercise and left? What what legacy are they left for the people to help self serve and things like that. And it might be though, you know, we want to run kind of training post, go live for, you know, a month and have to help mop up and do people that want holiday and all these kind of things that happen, but again, extends the costs, right? So it's it's that balance, but yeah, it's it's bloody important. Just Just like business readiness and realisation, as they're all important, kind of sides that that need to be covered. But, but yeah, no, that's, that's the train, right?

Jonathan Parnaby  47:20  
Well, it's that time again, we we've got to the end of another episode, and we're gonna look in our mailbag. So we've got another question. This is actually, again, we got another anonymous one. But the question is, why don't businesses focus on benefits realisation enough? Which is great question. I love this question.

Ian Kingstone  47:41  
Yeah. And the key thing now, I think that listen to that question is realisation I think businesses do focus on value and benefits, that at some point, they know why they want to do this, this change transformation. But they often and quite a few more and more these days do quite a good job of benefits at the front end, as I would call it around helping get a business case sign off, for doing the changes, and to get some budget and some funding to move forward and some investment. But what what a lot of businesses struggle is, as the questioner, you know, is put forward in actually realising those benefits and focusing on that benefits realisation. And I think, why don't businesses focus on benefits realisation and is because they get too busy into all the other things that have got to happen. You know, and, and I actually think if you map this out at the front end, better, then the focus will be on realisation. So I'm in the first point to me is, is, is calling your, your programme or project to benefits driven, or value driven initiative, and keep bringing that out in the objectives and so on. And doing all the right stuff upfront about mapping the change to the value, and all of that side and dependency networks and things like that as part of your business case, as part of your business case, allocating so you know, allocating ownership to those value those those benefit lines or value streams or however you're doing it through your, your initiative. So and then then if you allocate that and bake those, bake those outcomes, certainly the financial ones into budgets, and bake that into financial planning is an organisation they need focus on realisation so that's it there's there's loads of other ways of doing it, but that in principle, in my world is the way you should do it. But the Why don't they is because I don't think up front. They did they've they've truly looked at what outcomes are they Looking to achieve for that transformation? Sometimes it's because senior management don't want to be on the hook. Yeah, sometimes it's because it's just the focus is gone too much technologies and problems, we have changed management. You know, I think I think they get, they often get to the business case, and then they think, well, the value will just come. And that's really, yeah. And that was really frustrating to me, because the plan you've got at the front, where you might do a lot of work on dependency mapping and everything. And you might do a really good job of implementing and the change, and you might have people on really great change anyway, that doesn't mean you're still going to hit the value expected to hit you might get it slightly wrong.

Jonathan Parnaby  50:52  
It's a hypothesis isn't it

Ian Kingstone  50:55  
Yeah, yeah. So you need to test it. Yeah, exactly. Totally agree. And so, so yeah, it's frustrating. The businesses don't focus on it. And I could, I could speak for two hours on how to do it properly. And that we should do a few podcasts on that very subject. But but but why they don't, it still amazes me, it tends to happen at the front end, and then it doesn't get the right traction in that's probably because of the method. And they're not the transformation is not using a holistic method of delivery. Because if it was it would have value and benefits realisation management in there. And then it wouldn't be the case. So I guess my answer is not using a holistic method is probably the biggest, why don't they is probably my biggest answer this because they're not using a holistic method that covers you know, change management value benefits management, project and programme management and all that process management, all that lovely stuff that, that allows us to do transformation successfully.

Jonathan Parnaby  52:09  
Yeah, I don't think I can add anything to that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I can think that kind of jump jump into my head is like, you know, if you're adopting kind of best practice, you know, frameworks for transformation, or even programme management, right? You would be thinking about this stuff, because it's baked in. And the reason why it's baiting because it's important. And, but why I think I find is that I think a lot of, you know, kind of the senior senior leadership teams that are very focused on the front end, as you say, build the business case, get this thing, and it's getting the money and get it done. Because then, you know, it's a tick in a box, even before it's even delivered. And then it's the next new thing, the next new priority. And I think sometimes with the kind of leadership as well, when you get Changing of the Guard, a lot. So the people actually, you know, spun off the initiative in the first place and no longer there to, to kind of help sponsor and I carry this thing through, so therefore, it kind of wanes, and it doesn't wane and die. But the the focus on actually is delivering the value becomes less important, because the person is not there anymore, which is wrong, is completely wrong, and then I'm signed up

Ian Kingstone  53:23  
to it. And again, it's another whole conversation I think we should have at some point on the podcast, because, well, I've been in, you and I have been in that situation, I've been there several times as well, where, you know, changing different people in the organisation means changing ownership of certain areas, and therefore benefits or outcomes. And and, yeah, big problem, because they aren't bought into it, or they might not be as passionate about it, or they might want to do it a different way. And a good transformation programme can deal with that. Because yes, got the right mechanisms and the right framework to deal with that change in programme 

Jonathan Parnaby  54:00  
100% 100%. So, yeah, why business focus on realisation enough? Think we covered that, but ensure they should we all know that, right? They should do, because that should steer. Whether we should even continue or not. Or we go down the right path or not. Are we doing the right thing?

Ian Kingstone  54:18  
Yeah, well, what's not working? Yeah. Well, how action drive more benefits? You know that the whole that? Yeah, that's the whole Yeah. Anyway, I think we covered it.

Jonathan Parnaby  54:31  
You're I think we could go on forever on this one. And I think we should probably devote

Ian Kingstone  54:36  
some time to this in the future. I think so. Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  54:39  
Cool. Brilliant. Thanks for that. 

Jonathan Parnaby  54:44  
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the veer and butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation.

Ian Kingstone  54:51  
Yeah, so you can contact us at the website that's There you will find show notes on anything we've talked about in today's show or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's

Jonathan Parnaby  55:13  
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.

What have we been up to?
Examples of poor training
Training focused on tech only!
Holistic training strategy
Breaking down the strategy for training
Theme 1 - The goal of training
Theme 2 - The who & training needs
Theme 3 - Types of training
Theme 4 - Training planning
Theme 5 - Budget and resources
Theme 6 - Logistics
Question time
Last orders