As Ian & JP sit down at the table they catch a leaflet placed around the pub mentioning that a Pub Quiz is coming soon, thinking nothing of it our hosts continuing the change execution exploration by discussing "Business Readiness & Preparation". Ian & JP begin catching up where Ian is excited for his x-mas present to himself (a new road bike) and JP has gamified family film night which resulted in scaring his kids by watching the classic Jurassic Park. The pair finish their conversation after JP highlights that he is really too old and unfit to be playing Twister with his 6 year old son. Our hosts continue to explore what business readiness is and it's importance within transformation, how to capture and measure it, how to ensure the change team has a hub / dashboard to report on it and resourcing it properly.
Ian Kingstone 0:03
What you having then Jonathan,
Jonathan Parnaby 0:05
A pint please mate
Ian Kingstone 0:06
two points, please landlord.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:08
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting then?
Ian Kingstone 0:11
Over there? sat at that table over there?
Jonathan Parnaby 0:13
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,
Ian Kingstone 0:18
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:23
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there who have we got
Ian Kingstone 0:27
some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:33
Cool, fantastic. Well, let's crack on. Let's get over there.
Ian Kingstone 0:35
Welcome to the Beer & Butterfly
Jonathan Parnaby 0:37
a podcast where we talk transformation.
Ian Kingstone 1:03
I'm Ian Kingstone.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:05
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.
Ian Kingstone 1:06
And we're your hosts. In today's episode, we're going to talk about how we prepare and get the business ready to accept the change.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:14
So Ian we're back again, another one another episode for the books. We really we're getting, we're getting towards the end of the season now, which is good. It's quite mad if you actually kind of stop for a minute and think and look back is and we've done quite a lot haven;t we
Ian Kingstone 1:30
Yeah. Now, I think I think it's interesting as well, because we've been going through the the organisational change, process and journey if you want, and it's it feels, you know, sometimes you you're going along in that change piece, kind of a big programmes can take quite a long time. And we've been doing this podcast for a while, but it's quite nice to be getting to those those those conversations around, you know, the change actually happening and things like that. So I like this end of change
Jonathan Parnaby 2:04
We'll do a bit of a retrospective when we get to the end, won't we but so I won't do it now. But yeah, no, it's just I just thought for a minute. Wow, we're like, near the end of the season. But we're not quite there yet. So let's, we got a few more things to discover. And I think before we jump into it, you know, what, generally may what what you've been up to not see me for for a few days. I'll say seeing you virtually on a laptop screen. what you've been up to, right?
Ian Kingstone 2:30
Well, yeah, I mean, because of the lockdown and things it's been, you know, I can't say I've been off surfing or not that I do. But, you know, I can't really give you any glorious adventures that I've been on. Yeah, more DIY. Than done some more stuff around the house, which only little bits and bobs, nothing major to write home about. But But again, it just feels like getting things done, which I wouldn't necessarily normally do this time of year. Or even just just little bits and bobs, you know, fixing a wardrobe or you know, things like that putting a mirror up you know, just basic stuff. And but what I have done is because I enjoyed through the the first coming out of the first lockdown. And the summer I really enjoyed going out on my on my bike and things like that. And I've I've ordered a new push bike, I ordered a new mountain bike. Oh, cool. So so and that took a little bit research because I wanted to I wanted to spend not too much money but a bit of money. And I wanted to get one that was just right for me and what I wanted so, so I've been quite selfish, really. So I've ordered one for Christmas, whether it will arrive for Christmas as a Christmas present. I don't know because there's a major shortage. If you go to any bike shop, a bike comes in a new bike comes in and goes straight out. And if it's in if the person decides they don't want to get sold within a day to someone else is quite mad what's happened in that that industry if you want or that, that that that sector so yeah, it's on order. It should come just before Christmas. So I'm really quite excited about that. And yeah, looking forward to it and get out in in some muddy trails on the new mountain bike.
Jonathan Parnaby 4:19
just respond to the context of the listeners though. Well, I was six weeks away from Christmas now. Again, I just can't get my head around but so yeah, so the fact that you got your six weeks to get the bike to them.
Ian Kingstone 4:31
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've still got my my old bike is 25 years old. To keep it going and it still amazes me it's got the same brake pads and the same tires on it changed in tubes a few times but but you know, and so, but it was getting is old and heavy and things like that. So fancy that a new one and that will become the spare when you need it. Yeah Yeah. So then what have you been up to?
Jonathan Parnaby 5:02
Oh, as usual, to be honest, I've not been going out. I'm kind of missing out on feeling a bit like a prisoner. Prisoner at home. But I think, you know, taking the positives as I tried to do is actually had a lot more time to do more family things, even just simple things like we introduced. We've always done family film nights, don't get me wrong, like we've we've never done that before. But it's became more of a regular thing now, because we're all together a lot more and, and kind of what we do we call it gamified it a little bit. And Surprise, surprise you Now obviously, I'm a big nerd. And I like like gaming. So yeah, any anything to kind of gamify situations, always fun. So I've got this app on my phone, which I use for my board games, which is basically a first player randomizer and you will put a finger on the phone. And it randomly picks who goes first, right? So it just puts all the rubbish out. So we kind of do this with the film. So you'll come up with a choice every Friday, Saturday, whatever. And we use that use the app, whoever wins, that's the choice you pick. And it's really good for the kids. Because we it cuts out all this arguments, especially with a you know, now six year old he would might you know, get a bit upset that his choice wasn't paid. So now he knows that it's, you know, it's the app that does it. It's not anyone else.
Ian Kingstone 6:27
It's not that
Jonathan Parnaby 6:28
Times I'm thinking, please don't pick his choice, because I really don't want to watch it. But that's the game, right? And that's what you've got to do. That's the commitment. And it means it's fair, and we all get to kind of go for it. Anyway, I think there was my wife's choice. And she picked Jurassic Park last night. Awesome. Have not sat down and watched Jurassic Park for God knows how long and I know my kids haven't watched it. And you know, what, when did it come out? like 93-94 or something like that? And, like, bloody hell? It was Yeah, it was really good just to sit and watch that kind of film with the kids and then experience that for the first time and that they will they will print it and that
Ian Kingstone 7:07
It's quite scary, isn't it?
Ian Kingstone 7:11
Yeah I forgot actually how scary some seeds are and I think that that scene with the forget the dinosaurs names but the ones were a spirits and it's got these little things on the side of his neck. And there's that that kind of a blow that Ned in the obviously he's trying to escape with the DNA. As soon as that dinosaur popped up I thought oh no she's not gonna lie is my daughter and she was petrified. Which made me laugh, but for now they they enjoyed it. They loved it. They want to watch all of them now.
Ian Kingstone 7:44
That's good. Yeah, I mean, actually, you got me thinking about it. Now. I haven't watched that film in years. I might take it out later. It's just really good.
Jonathan Parnaby 7:52
I like I said, I think last week, it's good to go back to the old stuff. Right? And there are some really good and you know why even for what, I'm trying to use maps now. But you know, it's funny, what a six year old film The obviously CGI you can, you know, is a bit dated, but it's still pretty good. Yeah, you know, like that would be groundbreaking at the time, wasn't it?
Ian Kingstone 8:14
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Jonathan Parnaby 8:15
Ian Kingstone 8:19
when the dinosaurs real and it was all you know, I thought it was like a documentary.
Jonathan Parnaby 8:26
So yeah, we've been doing that and then it's been my son's birthday. So he's just turned six and we spent the day literally he was in control of the day so he went to the beach in the morning which obviously you know it's in November so it is cold windu and horrible but again, we just wanted to get out and spend the morning there and you know went to his favourite restaurant McDonald's because we could get a drive thru and yeah, we spent the game day playing games Iike Twister and all that kind of stuff and and you know what, like, literally the day after my knee was so sore, and I think I've pulled all the muscles have been twisted for an hour, which just shows you that I'm not very fit and
Ian Kingstone 9:11
yoga or Pilates.
Jonathan Parnaby 9:14
Only just start eased off after like three days but there we go. But yes, that's been me just injuring yourself. pretending I'm you know, six and watching dinosaurs. Typical weekend for me.
Ian Kingstone 9:29
Yeah, okay. It sounds fun to be able to do.
Ian Kingstone 9:35
So, Jonathan, have you got any any stories or examples of where the business is, you know, you need to get the business ready for for transformational change and the changes that are happening and how you go about that or how you've gone about that with any or or or some blunders, maybe some, some some some places where you You know, it didn't they weren't ready or the like.
Jonathan Parnaby 10:04
Yeah, I mean, probably like you mate have got, I've got quite a lot we say this every time we've got loads. And it's not just because we're saying it for the same sake, it's, I think, I think genuinely contracting, you generally get engaged, it's rare that you get engaged right at the start, that happens, and it's brilliant. But a lot of the time you get engaged because things fall off the rails. And, and one of those things typically is at the business isn't ready for the changes. And the example I've got was a small ERP delivery for kind of small to medium sized business, probably medium size. And they've already started their journey, they just did no change, nothing that had absolutely nothing, they just literally built the system, and they just threw it out the business. And even worse than that the system wasn't even ready. And obviously didn't do any testing to the system wasn't ready. So the business was that not even close to the ready for this thing. And they kind of implemented half half the ERP in one site and the plan to do it, and another site. And that's about the time where I joined and now just say hello, you need to pause. Just hold on a minute, you know, there's going to be a disaster, you've got the US sites kicking off, you know, we've speaking to the directors of each of the the US businesses there and they are not happy. And we have to deal with that first. You stop? No, for more and more things. So yeah, I mean, I mean, when you analysed it, it was just a typical case of one now I've been involved in the process. So it was all like designed in one team. And then they said this will work for you without really doing the front analysis. So that was kind of the main issue. But you know, it's just the usual stakeholder kind of engagement. And, and I think if they, you know, prepared change framework and approach properly, they could have mitigated a lot of those issues are way earlier in that programme
Ian Kingstone 12:08
with did they did they see it as it's, it's just not right yet? Or did they not have either any understanding at that level of I mean,
Jonathan Parnaby 12:17
they, they were bought into the programme as much as that this system is going to be a lot better than their current ways of working. So it's sold to them as a bit of a dream.
Ian Kingstone 12:29
Yeah, so you so suddenly, reality is, they don't know what they get in. It's not yet built. Right? They nobody's telling them what they've got do what's changing or anything like that. So
Jonathan Parnaby 12:39
yeah, I mean, understandably, I could empathise with, with guy, Adam knows his name. And he, when he sat down, I sat down, had a good chat with him on video, because obviously, the US and I went out and met him. And he, he kind of said, Look, you know, we had this system, there was implemented a lot of things that didn't work, not the things that just aren't right for that kind of business requirements that were missing. And without the team plan on going and fixing them, they'd moved on to a different site in the US to implement a solution. So they kind of like post something in and then left them. Yes, you know, is a cardinal sin rarely in my book, because you just not even you know, that two way street, we talked about control rooms and change networks and things like that, to dislike where we don't care, we're moving on. And you're just not going to get anywhere like that. You're just going to dig yourself in early grave. So
Ian Kingstone 13:31
that's also not checking that doesn't matter what job you're doing that you know, what you've what you provide it, does it work or not? Is it realising what it's supposed to realise? and all that, all that stuff? Yeah, I think I've seen that a lot. I've been lucky enough to try and prevent it a lot. I have seen certainly, some years ago now, when I when I was doing kind of project management of technical implementations, if you want, I saw a lot of that you go and then you're putting in this and this people hadn't even been involved in the decision making, or even felt engaged with. And I think empathy is a really important thing in this process. That should have happened a lot earlier on. And if you know, some of the things we've talked about, throughout these episodes would help drive that empathic engagement and that whole piece, so So yeah, I think I don't think it's something new. You start thinking is something you start thinking about in the vision? Almost, yeah, and that side of things, but But um, yeah, it's, it's certainly a lot. And it's funny because a lot of organisations kind of know, this. You know, but it's not like people don't get it. They don't do it. Or they don't know how to do it. They don't necessarily have a set of processes or calls or a method that allows them to do it. And I think, you know, we've talked a lot about methods in over the last few episodes, you know, change impacts, journeys, vision, business case, we've talked about all of those things. And those are the things that really get people engaged, and you need to get the right people in the business engaged. So, you know, and that kind of helps you understand the change in what what's going to happen. So I think we ought to talk a little bit about that. Really? Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 15:32
Yeah, I think I think you're right. I think that, like, if anyone's asking the question, Where do I start with this slide? I know, we need to get the business ready. But I don't know where to begin? Well, you should know if you kind of done the preparation properly, is my response. And that's not me just getting me shut down. That's just the, if you've done the preparation, part of any framework, you know, with the impacts and change, impact assessments and things like that. And, you know, I'd say go back to the change journey, episode that we did, you know, many weeks ago, because I kind of touches upon it as well is, is you should avoid the kind of prepared a little bit for what readiness activities are needed for those different stakeholder groups. Because obviously, different groups are impacted in different ways, as we said earlier, and that their journey through change is different to someone else's journey. So I think, I think you should be going back to that analysis and back to, yeah, that's kind of the beginning part, just to send check, right? I'm at this region where there's a Scottish region, or the southwest region, or the HR department, or finance or whatever, what are those readiness activities that they need to do and start to build up a plan or action list or task list, I want to get back a little back into the the preparation, areas of change. And, you know, when we talked about on the change journeys a few weeks ago, and also the changing path assessment, I think that's a good place to kind of make sure you you kind of get ready for the readiness, and they should tell you what, stakeholder groups. But how we need to get ready for each different stakeholder groups, as we know, they are impacted in different ways they the journey in different ways. So yeah, so I think, depending on the the audience that you're dealing with all the stakeholders you dealing with might depend on how you organise that list of activities, it could be that it's a plan, Gantt chart that you want to do, it could be it's an Action List, could be that task lists, it really doesn't really matter. There was no prescribed way of saying this is how you structure the kind of business readiness for a particular byte way,
Ian Kingstone 17:46
every every business is going to be different, right. And they're going to be at different levels. And depending on what the change is, and depending on the kind of activities that the change needs to do is going to determine that. So I mean, what you're really talking about early on is not doing doing those change impacts and journeys. Before that, it's even making sure people understand and engage in the vision and that side of things. And then it's kind of stakeholder analysis, isn't it really, it's kind of understanding those stakeholder groups early on, so that later on, you can plan, how you're going to how you're going to get ready. You know, certainly that you know, the business ready for the changes that are coming in, and timing of those as well. and timing of that readiness, I suppose is quite important. And depending on I guess the size of the changes, depending on how much like to sell it's a really big effort is needed in getting in, if that makes sense. You know, how do you know they're ready, then? How do we know they're ready? I mean, yeah, the answer to this, but I want us to know.
Jonathan Parnaby 18:54
Yeah, I think, I think again, it depends on the system. And I say system sense panel, the processes that you're you're using. And I very quickly, I think it's worth kind of highlighting that it if you don't know what approach to use. Let's simply use the control room and ask them they'll know that they've got stuff to do, because you've already done the groundwork without control Remi point he laid the foundation that, you know, we want to make you aware we need to educate, we need to get you ready. And we need to make sure that we sustained change, right as the four kind of principal pillars of of bold change execution. So they already know it's coming. So just ask them what they how they want it organised for the first time number one, but yeah, I think, how do we know that a business unit or function is ready? Well, first you need to know what you're measuring. And agree that so you need to and that can be quite hard, right? What can you measure? What can't you measure? So giving you an example it could be that for a God, let me just try to think of something that's top of my head. It could be that for a new purchase order in the system, that's that's been implemented and they will do it manually is that actually the the outstanding purchase orders that they've got on paper, they need to digitise someone is pulling spreadsheet, need to capture it so that we can implement that data into the system before go live, as one example, might have used it before, because it's the one that keeps popping into my head. And there might be many, many things it might be like 50, things that this business unit has to do before we actually turn on the system or might be done during the go live, etc. So we need to log those somewhere when you structure that. And also, we need to probably put checkpoints in as well, I quite like to have a checkpoint system with the business unit, which kind of says right at this stage of the programme, all we need them to do is just be aware of what's coming up, and that they're number one, they're just the way that things are gonna happen. Right. And then they pass that checkpoint, and that can be done through the control room. And set checking feedback, things like that, maybe checkpoint two, you can be a bit more advanced there, they're aware. And they started working on a few of the minor readiness tasks in checkpoint three, you can kind of escalate up the urgency track, right up to you know, the guys on training, they they kind of engaged in the organ to attend and all those kinds of things. And you can use that checkpoint system quite easily to, to help measure kind of functions progress through the checkpoints are high level. And I think that's quite good for the executives to see. And that's something I've used before it said, like, we've got five checkpoints. And we should be at checkpoint two by now. But actually, we've got three of our business units that haven't quite made it because of x, y, and Zed. And I control rooms are told, as they say just it starts to flag, you know, the wheels are starting starting to wobble? Yeah,
Ian Kingstone 21:57
I've seen that. I've seen that. And what you say is really important, I think that you've actually got some kind of measurement. And you might, you know, I'll give you an example of what I've seen, I've seen a business unit that that was going through a change. And the leader of that business unit, and the manager of that business unit was, was quite keen to, you know, quite proud of the business unit, and quite proud of of their people. And and he he wanted to kind of eat so yeah, we're ready for this week, we're, we're ready, then we had a series of activities going on, that needed to happen before they could transition if you want. And yeah, if you if we'd only worked with that individual, they were always ready in his eyes in a nice way. And it was kind of difficult. He was just so kind of Yeah, proud of his unit that they could do anything and that kind of thing. Whereas what you really need is some kind of measurements across the piece to chapter two, we're ready. It's it's not just we can take it out this is change is kind of difficult for a lot of people, some people will deal with it differently. And although there might be great unit and used to doing what they do in the way they've always done it, and achieve whatever they need to achieve. From that perspective as a unit doesn't mean that they're going to go through change. So easy. Do you see what I mean? So I think you said it's really important is having that control room having that, that feedback mechanism, that understanding or those measurements or whatever it is those checkpoints that allow you to not just rely on one checkpoint, which might be somebody's opinion.
Jonathan Parnaby 23:43
Yeah, that's so important opinion, you're gonna get a lot of opinions. It changes especially readiness and, and you need to kind of make it black and white, you got to try and make it logical. So that someone if someone asks you okay, how do we know that units ready? And you like, because they told me, it's not good enough answer. That's the best. They said, lastly, they told me they're ready. So the psychologically they feel ready, but they are 69% done on their business readiness activities. And what they've got outstanding is, you know, x, y, and z, which they're planning to do in the next few weeks, I've gotten a lot more confidence, because of evidence of fact that things are happening. And, you know, boxes have been ticked and things like that. And, and, yeah, it's and it's difficult, because every change is different, right? It's not always going to be the businesses got to do a few things. And then we go live, it could be, you know, like an example of an old design, where HR get involved, where actually this is now a different department doing something you know, that they need to do legally, on behalf of another department that's been impacted by the change and suddenly you've got this other dynamic in involved where he kind of managing that as a project or a bunch of tasks that need to happen which of course is quite awful. For The individuals that are going through this, it could mean, you know, people are losing jobs or restructuring or whatever it is, and you've got all that to contend with. But it's an it's a, probably a mandatory part of the readiness process is that in order for us to go live, you know, that the department might need to be restructured? Yeah. And so yeah, it's, I think it's just really bringing it down to its basics is making sure that you have a system to measure that readiness, what is it and get that kind of agreed at the start speeds, use those control rooms, to understand how you're going to track that what's gonna work for them, you know, they don't probably don't want to see, you know, 1000 line line Gantt chart, that's not gonna work, that maybe they want something in a simpler way that they can just tick off, maybe it's a board and post it notes in the office, I don't know what whatever is gonna kind of work for them, you need to kind of work around, but also in the centre and the hub as the change team, we need to have a mechanism that's pulling all of these different measurements from different functions and areas, especially if you're rolling out things across regions or countries, you need a way of bringing all that together to paint that picture to the programme team to the sponsor, exactly. If needed, and, and have all that mechanism in place. So really, it's kind of looking at those things. And, and then suddenly, you become the, the team that, you know, as the abstain fire, right. Yeah.
Ian Kingstone 26:26
And so who's actually, I mean, obviously, people need to change who's actually responsible or accountable. And who needs to make sure that's all happening. And is that is that the change team? You know, I, I always, I don't believe it is that, you know, how do we how do we? How do we make the business, you know, accountable to drive that change? And how do we do that?
Jonathan Parnaby 26:54
Yeah, the business in my eyes are 100% accountable for their readiness. And that is a big problem half the time. I've seen it. But I was part of the change team, I managed and there was an expectation that I was accountable.
Ian Kingstone 27:10
Yeah. Your responsibility to get the business ready, not not mine, or accountability. So what do we do about it Jonathan? Do you
Jonathan Parnaby 27:20
know let's have an honest conversation, a minute. And, you know, this change is happening. Right? It's been agreed the bond has been paid for, we're already building something, it's coming down the track. It's not my accountability. To make sure it happens. It's yours, Mr. Change Ambassador, as we talked about, again, in our change network episode, is that person's accountability to make sure happens, however, why the change team is not there to say why don't matter if it fails or not the change these responsibilities to help make sure they engage with the business, support them with information, processes, tools, techniques, to get them to, you know, to manage them through change. So it's a team effort at the end of the day, but it's important to have that accountability conversation, because if you a lot of the problems stem from that, and if the business unit doesn't feel they're accountable for the change, then you're gonna have problems. Adopting,
Ian Kingstone 28:20
comes back to what we were saying at the beginning of this conversation today, I think, I mean, I agree, sometimes you need to sit down and have a bit of an accountability conversation.
Jonathan Parnaby 28:29
Yeah, that's fine.
Ian Kingstone 28:30
But they should want, they should want the change, they should already be bought into that. So again, it comes back to those life is easier. In this change world, if we get the business engaged at the get go. Yeah, and they understand the vision, they understand what they're trying to achieve. And they go through this, whatever it is design process, or understanding the change journeys and so on, to get to a place where they know the changes coming, so they get ready for that change. And because it's something they should want, because they're bought into the vision and bought into their benefits, or whatever it is that they need to realise out of this change, or a part of a much bigger change than they, they should want it to work and therefore want to own making it happen and therefore be accountable for that change. And I think, I think, as you've said, there's often an occasion where you end up kind of having to sit down and have that as a conversation later on. Rather than, you know, they're bought into it. And that's a lot harder because you're telling them they should want this rather than they want it. And so you've got to go back to basics, I think then and get them to understand because a lot of the time changes in some areas can be quite painful can't be in the sense of there's quite a lot to do a lot of change. That can be a lot of anxiety and things like that. And actually, the overall benefit, if you want might not be in that area, there might be, like you just said earlier, it could mean you're restructuring some people things moving around processes of changing. You know, not everybody's, that what they do is changing, there could be a little bit of ambiguity, because of whatever it is that's changing, there's no way of knowing that that point, hopefully not, but there could be. So you know, it's difficult for people to kind of accept accountability, I think, in some respects, especially if the benefits, the real benefits are happening somewhere else. And they're just part of those, that network of change if you want. So, so I get it. So my my view on that is, is is taking them back through the journey, again, getting them to see, I hate to use this term, but what the cog they are in the set of cogs that drive the right outcomes if you want, and where they fit in, and how they, how, I guess how they make the overall thing. You know, achievable and a success by owning, getting ready as a business. And I think, I think that's, you know, quite a challenge.
Jonathan Parnaby 31:22
Yeah, and the same is true, when you got to switch out of leadership in certain areas as well, during the programme, you know, and these things can go on for a long time, and it is inevitable that it will happen, that suddenly you've got somebody who's bought into the process from the early days, now, you're kind of going through the implementation of that change, or getting ready for that change. And that person leaves the business and another new one comes in, and you've got to then go through that reeducation process again, with that new person, and are trying to get on board with things and, and sometimes that you know, difference and personality differences in approach can cause some some fun games, which perhaps they are within the past, then
Ian Kingstone 32:04
you start off 1000 thoughts in my mind about situations, and it's quite interesting, actually bring that up, and not just in the in, in the readiness piece. But overall, some of these programmes that we've worked on you and I've worked on, it's got a lot of change in them. And but they've also been quite long and quite quiet, you know, over a period of time. And they change within themselves. Sometimes as you go along and find you need to change what you thought you were doing, because it's not working necessarily, and you need to adapt that or whatever. And along the way, yeah, there is moves and changes of people, naturally, most of the time, but there are, and yeah, and so they weren't bought in at the beginning of the journey. So what I just talked about, about you know, they should want it, you do need to revisit that and get them back to why we're doing this and where they need to be. And, and so again, I suppose I reinforce the need to have done that stuff up front. So you can use it again later. Yeah. and support the business and getting ready.
Jonathan Parnaby 33:08
Yeah, absolutely. And using exact for that, and hopefully the exact bought into this. And they need to be kind of helping, especially in that engagements, how important is it to be part of that person's induction? massive thing, and you need to be the cog in the machine in a less...
Jonathan Parnaby 33:26
We've talked a little bit about it, midseason, but this again, comes back to mindset and behaviours of the leadership, doesn't it?
Jonathan Parnaby 33:31
Yeah, it does.
Ian Kingstone 33:33
Some, but we can touch on that all all. all areas of the change, process and journey.
Jonathan Parnaby 33:40
Yeah. I mean, last question I got really in is, is there anything else we feel we should add on the topic of business readiness that we haven't covered already?
Ian Kingstone 33:50
The only thing I would say is you never started early enough. So I think people, I even myself tend to plan positively. That exciting or that, you know, we'd start that three months before they transition, because they'll have plenty of time. And it's never enough. And, and I think it's it's it's interesting, because you know, the change types, like we said, there's some things you can do before whatever change is happening, or you're transitioning, say to a new system, or whatever these changes you do when you transition and these changes you can't do till after. And you know, we've talked about those in the past. And you kind of but I think I think certainly the ones before. I don't think you there is occasions where you can't you can't start them to a certain time because it's just timing as to be in a certain way for the change to transition to work successfully. Maybe. But I don't think you could, you could still start them planning that. testing that and understanding that earlier even if you know you're not going to do it till say next. Next February or something? And I think I think that's something that, that, you know, or there's never enough time. So, so to get the business ready, so I think, you know, I think for me, it's how do we think about through the process? Trying? What can we do earlier? How can we get people in the right place earlier? Or, you know, as long as that doesn't disrupt them in another way? What can we do to support the business and getting ready earlier? I think to me, that's probably, yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 35:32
good point, I think the like, good question, when do you start a business readiness? And there's no, there's no, one shot answer? It's, again, look at what you've got to do. Look at the size of the prize look, yeah, just look at the experience. And, and, and work with them through the control room to kind of size it up and go right within, we should be starting in six months, not three. And hopefully, you can kind of, you know, have that time to work on it, sometimes we don't get that luxury. And, and sometimes the the, the needs of the programme outweigh the needs of the business and it is wrong. And things can go on and, you know, come down the track, old train, and you just got to deal with that. But I think as the change team, you need to be the voice of the business. And in those conversations when, especially when they're planning for certain go live dates and quarters, and this, that and the other and saying, look, you want to rush this through, but there's a crap tonne of work that they need to get ready for, and you're cutting that short, which then diminishes the potential benefits that you're going to get, etc, etc. So, yeah, the last thing I think, and it's just popped into my head, is the resourcing of the change team to help with readiness. So there's no way in the world that the change team would have enough people to even do the readiness on behalf of the business. I'm not even suggesting that, by the way, as we thought about the accountability should be in the business and the change champions be the ones that actually are coordinating the effort of getting those tasks done. But even so, as I said earlier, it's important to understand and measure, and no wage business unit is and I would say the more diverse your, your kind of change networkers in terms of what change is happening across your phases, you might want to consider the kind of like business partnering and change. So that actually have dedicated people working with dedicated regions, or countries or, or whatever. And the reason why I think that helps is because it's relationship management. And there's no point having random people dropping into control rooms every fortnight when they don't always have the historical conversations to have the fortnight before. And actually, if you've got the same person day in, day out going in having those conversations, you're maturing that relationship, you're building trust, and you know, all these things that they're raising, they know they're getting back to the programme, and the programme is bringing things back to them. And so that whole two way conversation that really starts to sing. So yeah, I've just wanted to kind of highlight that business partnering is something you might want to consider. But again, you ideally want to have visibility of that, right? the beginning when you're doing your budget, because obviously the cost and you probably would know from the high level scope, what areas are impacted? Is this multi country rollout of any rp? Or is this something HR system, so you might not need it? So it's just, yeah, I just wanted to have that conversation. It's important, and it's something that's helped me in the past. But
Ian Kingstone 38:36
I think that comes back to a little bit of what I was saying as well. And it'd probably be better to over plan that at the beginning and then not need it as much. Yeah, then under planet. So, again, it's probably it's probably the thing, worst case scenario, when you're planning about what you might need to deliver those things, rather than assume it's all going to be okay. Because in my experience, there's always more to do. And there's always more you can do to kind of get the business ready. And like you say, putting in partnering is a great idea like that.
Jonathan Parnaby 39:07
Yeah. Cool. Okay, so I think, probably wrapping up, right? I think we're, we're getting to the end of this, I'm actually on this topic I'm really interested in, in people's feedback, I want to I want to kind of hear from our audience on business readiness, because it's such a diverse topic in its own right. And I think everybody's gonna have their own experiences in readiness. I'd love to hear more about that. And, and yeah, I understand that their questions around what they they find works or what they find doesn't work or, or any specific situations that our audience have gotten involved with, you know, so that's my call out to you guys that are sitting in our virtual table, having a virtual plane with us. And hopefully, we'll, we'll get some really good stuff and But yeah, I think for me, that's the that's the end of the topic.
Ian Kingstone 40:01
Okay, Jonathan, It's question time again. Yeah, we got it. We got a question from Trish. Trish Morris. Yeah. What are your thoughts on business businesses supporting people forced to work from home due to things like COVID-19?
Jonathan Parnaby 40:17
My thoughts is that they should be supported. Let's first just address Trish, who we know Actually, yes. Friend of the pod, friend of us. We worked with Trish. Many years ago, actually now. But yeah, so massive. Thank you Trish for sending this in and, and getting engaged. We love it. So we hope to hopefully hear from me more, but yeah, what are my thoughts on the businesses? supporting people through working from home food? COVID? Well,
Jonathan Parnaby 40:52
it's, it's a big topic, actually, I think, isn't it? Because if you look at, obviously, what's happened with the pandemic, everyone's kind of had to force to change their working methods, behaviours, locations, everything has had to change. And some people adapt to that really well, some people I'm sure hate it, and hate doing zoom calls or teams calls. All day on, I'm not massive funder, and I'm all day. But there we go. I think the thing that springs, to my mind actually is the differences of you being in the office and to not being in the office is the is actually the bits outside the meetings, right. So it's a bit slight, when you go and make a cup of tea in the kitchen, and you catch up with on a bob from finance, or whatever you go are talking about the project you've been working on, and you just naturally have those engaging conversations or corridor conversations. And I think what businesses can kind of help or should be helping to do is like, how can they recreate some of those organic virtual environments for people to talk? And just catch up naturally? Does that make sense? I'm not waffling?
Ian Kingstone 42:08
I think so. And I think it Yeah, I mean, the challenge you can't recreate is the energy gap for the people though. So if you're in a workshop, or you're doing something that you normally would do in front of somebody, that a lot of people get their energy in what they do, and their motivation from the energy of others. And that's difficult to to generate, when you're just working remotely it especially when you're doing, especially when you're doing lots of workshop, you type things. So I think that's challenged now, I think there is ways you can do it. You can make some of those sessions a bit more, a bit more, you know, relaxed, I guess. So they're not so formal, in every meeting doesn't have to have, you know, a specific agenda. And I don't know, you know, the minutes of the last meeting kind of approach you can I think you can do a bit of that. But but it is difficult to get nice, say those those kinds of side conversations. So sidebar conversations that quite often can resolve problems or, you know, and I also think it's that the other little bits, the other interactions, you know, sometimes there is a bit politely, I suppose sometimes there's little conversations around for people just to kind of you're being a bit fair. And that last meeting, when you do not mean that it's just that kind of friendly, kind of, you know, I don't know, those kinds of conversations that might go on that you just don't get and it doesn't seem right then to go go and have them separately. Do you see what I mean?
Jonathan Parnaby 43:40
Yeah, no, I think it's you know, the reason why I'm bringing this topic up, actually, is because I think I spend most of my day bouncing from one call to another call to another call. And then some it's five o'clock. And I think, you know, going back to Patricia's question, which is, you know, what can businesses do to support people? I'll kind of cover a wider point to that in a minute, is Well, firstly comes that we stop having that expectation that we are just going to sit on calls for eight hours a day mass number one, right? Number two is, you know, how can we really reintroduce the socialness back in with our colleagues, that is outside of meetings, ironically, that might end up being a meeting, because we're stuck at home, we can't physically go out. But even if it's like, you know, between these hours, like this is coffee time, is off hour, that is uninterrupted that people can jump on and just talk about whatever they want to talk about, as if they would if there was in the kitchen, you know, those kinds of things and, and the thing, you know, the company's helping to facilitate that for people's mental well being, because sometimes it's just good to do but I think the wider thing that's coming back to me is Yeah, again, it's the change management stuff we're talking about in have been talking about throughout the season, right? It's understandable, there's impacts our understanding what we're going to do about it, and different people cope differently. You know, you might have a development team who, who actually don't mind this way of working whatsoever. But you might have a HR team that do.
Ian Kingstone 45:18
Yeah, exactly. Different people have different requirements.
Jonathan Parnaby 45:22
How will how, and what are we going to do about them and just be open and honest, why it's not ideal, this is change that was forced, this isn't change that was, we're gonna get value out of doing this. And, etc, although ironically, I think there's a lot of value that could be driven out of this, if people realising maybe the offices that we're spending or leasing or renting or whatever, maybe not as needed as we thought they would be, and maybe the hybrid model, and,
Ian Kingstone 45:50
and you're hearing mixed values as well. So it's not just about saving money for her, you know, I'm hearing lots of positive messages from people around the fact that, you know, they can kind of move their day around a little bit. They don't have to do that long commute. They're not tired by the time they start their job and that kind of thing. So so I think for different people, it's going to have different, different, you know, yeah, it's gonna be different. Some people will see value in working from home, some people will see, you know, a negative. Yeah, this benefits if you want from from, from Yeah, not not not been able to go into that office environment. So yeah, I think it's, yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 46:34
we had a conversation about in place, I'm working with them in it. And they were talking about the First Aiders that they had in their organisation. And actually, obviously, being a First Aider at the moment is, is not really I'll say useful. It's, it's not something that is going to be used as much if you're not in the office. So what they're doing is retraining, a lot of those First Aiders to help with mental health. That is actually that is what has taken a battering the moment. That is what is probably a massive warning to most businesses is mental health and fatigue. People how they're coping? Yeah. I think this question actually is, we could
Ian Kingstone 47:20
probably do a whole podcast on this, we
Jonathan Parnaby 47:22
probably could have made maybe Trisha she's up for it, maybe she can come on and sit at our third seat at the table and discuss it with us. But But yeah, I think there's a lot businesses can do into round this up. And they should be doing and they should recognise that people. This isn't maybe an ideal situation, but also, what could they be doing to help with mental health to help with supporting people with this transition? And and have you guide them through what needs to be done? Rather than expecting zoom calls for four hours a day?
Jonathan Parnaby 47:55
Yeah, yeah. Good.
Jonathan Parnaby 47:57
Ian Kingstone 47:57
Jonathan Parnaby 47:58
Thank you very much. Cheers Trish.
Jonathan Parnaby 48:02
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the Beer and Butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation.
Ian Kingstone 48:09
Yeah, so you can contact us at the website, https://www.beerandbutterfly co.uk. So that's https://www.beerandbutterfly co.uk. There you will find show notes on anything we've talked about in today's show, or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's https://www.beerandbutterfly co.uk.
Jonathan Parnaby 48:30
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.