Beer & Butterfly

Season 1 - Episode 9: "We've gone live...right what's next?"

April 21, 2021 Ian Kingstone & Jonathan (JP) Parnaby Season 1 Episode 9
Beer & Butterfly
Season 1 - Episode 9: "We've gone live...right what's next?"
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

After a challenging week Ian & JP catch-up in the Beer & Butterfly to finish off the final conversation around the change execution pillar "Realisation & Adoption".  As the pair catch-up Ian explores taking his daughter surfing at a man made wave centre in Bristol whilst secretly thinking he is Bodie in Point Break, JP continues Xbox film night with Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (whoa double Keanu Reeves moment) whilst exploring Synthwave music from Gunship (any fans of 80s music check them out).  Our hosts then continue to explore the age old problem of projects and programmes focusing on go-lives and then moving onto the next project within the portfolio and exploring the dangers of that way of thinking, e.g. change continues long after a go-live has happened and some would argue the change journey is about to truly begin.

  • 00:00 - Intro
  • 01:13 - What have we been up to?
  • 11:11 - Project delivered, moving on to the next one
  • 16:46 - Two plans - transition & value
  • 18:16 - Transition plan
  • 23:15 - Change during transition
  • 29:59 - Value realisation and adoption
  • 36:00 - Sustainable change
  • 41:41 - Running change capabilities post transition
  • 46:21 - Question time
  • 51:41 - Last orders

Ian Kingstone  0:03  
What you having then Jonathan,

Jonathan Parnaby  0:05  
A pint please mate

Ian Kingstone  0:06  
two points, please landlord

Jonathan Parnaby  0:08  
So Ian, Where's our audience sitting then

Ian Kingstone  0:11  
Over there? sat at that table over there? 

Jonathan Parnaby  0:13  
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them

Ian Kingstone  0:18  
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:23  
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there wh have we got

Ian Kingstone  0:27  
is some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:33  
Cool, fantastic. Well, let's crack on. Let's get over there.

Ian Kingstone  0:35  
Welcome to the Beer and Butterfly

Jonathan Parnaby  0:37  
A podcast where we talk transformation.

Ian Kingstone  1:03  
I'm Ian Kingstone.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:05  
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby. 

Ian Kingstone  1:06  
And we're your hosts.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:08  
In today's episode, we talk about the importance of change to realise value in your organisation. 

Jonathan Parnaby  1:13  
So Ian we're back. We are pretty much in our final full episode of the season. And yeah, well, great feeling right.

Ian Kingstone  1:23  
Yeah, that's good. It's good to hear. It's good to see our through the hub through several lock downs and things like that. We're ended up where we are. And I think our ambitions at the start would probably be a bit further along, but we've had a few challenges along the way.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:39  
Yeah, we have here and I remember being in the pub earlier this year, a long time ago talking about doing this when we and kind of planning some bits out how would you seem at all that kind of stuff? And yeah, that to get to this position? Every recording from home? That's fine. Yeah, we're getting there. And yeah, really, really, really. It's been really good fun. So yeah, I mean, it's kind of round off the bit, the beginning of the conversation there might like, obviously, it wasn't that long ago since we last spoke. But have you ever been up to anything? Have you seen anything, listen to anything done any more limestone walls, any more DIY.

Ian Kingstone  2:18  
I'll tell you one little thing that does kind of an odd little thing that I've been doing is in between the first lockdown and the second lockdown, we were looking at things to do for my for my daughter's birthday. And one of the things that she I've always been quite interested in and that she's, I think quite interested in is surfing. Right. And I know you surf that so. 

Jonathan Parnaby  2:44  
Yeah, I got a board, I go. I'm crap, but that's fine.

Ian Kingstone  2:49  
I've never been at a surf I've been for one lesson but never actually for like probably four seconds or something. And then failing. Right? So so it's something I've always wanted to do. But anyway, we went to this place just outside Bristol. So this is a bit cheating really it's called the way

Jonathan Parnaby  3:08  
oh is this the indoor wavy thing.

Ian Kingstone  3:11  
It's not indoor, it's outdoor But yeah

Jonathan Parnaby  3:13  
I don't know why I said indoor, it's a manmade wave. 

Ian Kingstone  3:18  
Absolutely brilliant, right? Obviously I'm done that this week because it's closed because a lockdown but it's outdoor it's amazing if you get a chance to even just to go and watch not do do any Surfing is cafe there and a sharp and all that lovely stuff. So once we're out of this lockdown situation, it's worth going to say but but we went there and we were thinking about you know, booking some time for some some lessons. Anyway, long story short, that's got me thinking right the way through the latest lockdown and thinking about next summer and stuff hopefully, you know, some hope out there. That about you know, I really ought to just try and learn to surf and if my daughter's gonna do it. That's great. Right and then we could get it or whatever so so but then that got me thinking about one of my favourite films which is Point Break classic 1991 you know Keanu Reeves and yeah so so that that got me back into so I've gone back into the early 90s and watch Point Break again which is filmed but that's about the only thing I can tell you I've done anything different since we last spoke but just movies again that Yeah, 

Jonathan Parnaby  4:37  
Have you watched the reboot, the reboot of Point Break.

Ian Kingstone  4:43  
I wasn't as I it's difficult when you've got a cult movie that that I feel was a cold mouth maybe back back then. For it to get replaced. I think that I think it's good maybe but I don't 

Jonathan Parnaby  4:55  
I refused, I refused to watch it

Ian Kingstone  5:00  
Okay, yeah. And I mean, it's not the same. It's not like exactly the same anyway. But I've seen it that now that that old classic still for me is the. Yeah, this reminds me of a lot of things that era as well. So, yeah, so that's about the only thing I've done and still haven't been surfing. But then again,

Jonathan Parnaby  5:20  
we should go there maybe next year.

Ian Kingstone  5:23  
Yeah, yeah. Keep don't mind. watching someone, at the little waves fall in quite a lot. But yeah,

Jonathan Parnaby  5:29  
I have not even seen me do it. And I don't know if you've got this impression. I'm a really good surfer. I'm so not this isn't me saying I'm not really good. And then I'm good. This is me saying I'm not really good. Because I'm not really good. But I just love being out there. And it's, it's more the escapism, it's this that is, yeah. Break, isn't it? It's mental break, and you do what you're focused on is staying alive.

Ian Kingstone  5:57  
And that the place The Wave about so Bristol, I don't think would replace real see for me, but but it was it's a really safe and easy environment to learn in. Which which would be and yeah, quick, I think it'd be quicker to learn. And I think by the nature of how it's done, 

Jonathan Parnaby  6:15  
Well the conditions are manmade. So therefore, they can kind of guarantee control the waves and obviously in the sea. It's It's chaos theory.

Ian Kingstone  6:25  
It's quite big. And it's, it's, it's, you know, it's quite impressive. I was I was, if you get a chance, go and have a look at it. 

Jonathan Parnaby  6:31  
Yeah. Now, you know what, I forgot that he existed. And I think for me and I, and obviously, it's probably not cheap to do, compared to go into North Devon, and rocking up. And you do that for free? Well, free the cost of parking. But that's about it. So I think that that's for me, probably why I've never considered it. But yeah, it kind of makes sense. And now my daughter's expressed an interest.

Ian Kingstone  6:57  
It's the opposite of the way you've just paid by the way you don't pay for the parking, but you pay to get in

Jonathan Parnaby  7:02  
But you pay for every hour that you use. But no I'll look at it. Because like my daughter is interested as well. And that might be a safer way of exploring and getting her to learn rather than taking the down to the sea. And yeah, and obviously more wild elements at play all that kind of stuff. Cool. That sounds good.

Ian Kingstone  7:23  
about yourself what you've been up to,

Jonathan Parnaby  7:25  
yeah, like we've I've started to renew my, my Xbox film nights with with a mate. And I think I mentioned this earlier in the podcast where we would just kind of both headsets on synchronizer films are watching. So we actually watched Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, because it appeared in in Sky recently. So we've thought we through it on the fly again, another film I have not watched since I was a kid. I was probably what 12 or something's when I last watched that film.

Ian Kingstone  7:58  
That's weird Keanu Reeves again.

Jonathan Parnaby  7:59  
Yeah, so Keanu Reeves double feature, you start talking about John Wick soon. But no, it's Yeah, it's it's quite dated, isn't it? But it's quite funny. It's good to kind of revisit those things. And so yeah, we watched that. And we've done a family film, kind of night, as I mentioned on the last episode, and yeah, Josh got his kind of way, or won the challenge and managed to watch Spider-man into the Spider Verse, which I'd seen before actually. And it's the animated version that Sony have done. Obviously it's not part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, nor that kind of thing. But you know, why? If people are put off by it, because it's animated, and I think it's for kids, it's it's, it's brilliant. Is is absolutely brilliant. It's the story and the way that they've done animation so clever, as well. And yeah, it's fantastic. It's really funny as well. Cool. Yeah, honestly, just sit down, even if it's like on your tod, because I did that off. I'll give it a go. Someone's raving about it. And I thought, well, it's a kid's film. And it's not, really, it's really good. So you have done that. And also did weirdly discovered an 80s kind of synth wave band called Gunship. And it's a band that no one else. No one's heard of these of these people. And I couldn't even tell you how I come across them. But as you know, I like my 80s I kind of very nostalgic in that period. And you know, I have a room that's kind of dedicated to the 1980s. And you know, you've been in it. And, yeah, I kind of discovered and they're not an old band. I think they're fairly recent, like five years, you know, five years old, and they just do a load of songs in that kind of style. And it's just really catchy by often I don't know how to explain it, but yeah, it just reminds me of like Miami Vice and And that that kind of kind of vibe. And yeah, and they've got a lot of youtube music videos, which are worth a watch as well as one called Tech Noir, which is also the, the the bar in the Terminator for those that want the cultural reference. But yeah, and the whole video is done in claymation. And it's just about this, this guy who ends up going into his Telly, and he puts these VHS cassettes into his chest, like Robocop and he turns into Robocop and He-Man and all this kind of stuff. So it's mad. It's completely mad and bonkers, but it's just word for what you know,

Ian Kingstone  8:03  

Jonathan Parnaby  8:41  
if I can even do watching another one and another one and another one. And this is what's going on and you listen to It's really good. I really like it is I usually put it on when I'm working on things. It's just quite nice to have in the background. But that's Yeah, that's me discovering some new weird stuff. What I'm about

Ian Kingstone  10:57  
discovering something that takes you back to that era, though that stuff.

Jonathan Parnaby  11:02  
Yeah, considering it's not from that era.

Ian Kingstone  11:03  
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's pretty good. There we go.

Jonathan Parnaby  11:08  
Sorry, let's get on to the episode, right? We're kind of going to dive into the discussion of essentially, the age age old problem of, no, we've got a project or a programme and we're delivering something and it goes live. And then suddenly, the, you know, the business then wants to move on to the next new thing. And then they do it again. And we wanted the next new thing and do it again. The next new thing? And maybe not spending enough time on the actually, have we delivered the value that we said we would, and actually are our people adopting the new ways of working to then deliver the value, that kind of thing. So we wanted to explore this, and it kind of falls at the the end of the change management kind of framework and process anyway, which is kind of the realisation and adoption. And yeah, that's, that's kind of the theme and topic of today. But I suppose any, any examples that you've got in your history, then?

Ian Kingstone  12:11  
I think I can see what I was surprised. Why did we pick these topics? But yeah, I think of a few few examples. And I'm sure we'll get into it a bit more, as we start talking about the reasons why kind of pick out an exact one, he probably would have been really putting SAP at computer, the ERP system into a paper mill. And, you know, you kind of get some things up and running, and go live with them the transactional type processes, if you want, need that a new trends, you know, your transition to those processes. So you're live with, you know, order entry and production orders, and all the things you did that we did in a paper industry and in SAP. But the benefits were around, you know, utilising kind of global stock control and a much larger bring, you know, the benefits of that programme. And the change that was required were around, you know, sharing things across production plants, were around, getting better give information to your customers and things like that, which kind of got SAP in and some of the the other things, some of the other activities that actually drove the value, that the last little bits that drove the value. Yeah, unnecessarily get done. And people moved away and got on with, like you said, the next thing, and not necessarily SAP, but the next kind of challenge that they had, you know, a go going on, rather than actually, how can we actually achieve what we said we were going to achieve by doing this? You know, and and I think there's a there's a Yeah, I think there's a challenge there. Because not just people are kind of if you want just gone through massive transition, but that may be tired from it and so on. But that just just demonstrates then, next a business case forward. You know, it doesn't demonstrate the value of some of the things you've done in that particular case. You could see that we play sapiens, and people were kind of like, yeah, I see and it's done, whatever. But the value we talked about and why we're doing it didn't necessarily get utilised.

Jonathan Parnaby  14:40  
Yeah. So common is now I mean, the example that jumps to my mind is probably early on in my career Actually, I used to work for a well known retailer in the Midlands and we were implementing handheld terminal devices into the stores to help with kind of things like goods receipt and product template, I might have mentioned this this project before, you know what I can't remember, it's been. It's been that long. But it's, I don't ever remember I was the BA on that on that project. And you know, and it was fairly early on, and still have a lot to learn. And I think I can't remember anyone having the conversation of actually, are these kind of devices that have been implemented, delivering the benefits and value that was stated at the beginning of the project? And was there any mention of that? It was more about how we got the cat out there. Have the people been trained, which is a good thing, we are trainers, and we actually took care of that that side. But after three months after, you know, it could have put them in the bed. Yeah. And that was a significant investment as well, I have all this this kit, you know, hundred like 500 600. HHT's, which we know weren't she, that needed to be kind of configured and set up and it had this software installed and all that kind of stuff. And not only the, the the investment in the software that went on it and the development of that software. But yeah, I can tell you could not tell you to this day, whoever won, they still use our doubt they still use it now, you know, life moved on Christ. This is before the smartphones really took off. But but but yeah, it's uh, yeah, I can't tell you if the the value was realised at all, because it was just trying to get stuff out there. We want the next phase that's got the new wave of functionality onto those devices. Yeah. And it's just, it's just something that sticks out for me, which is the price. I'll be asking if I was the finance, commercial directors on this is pay for itself.

Ian Kingstone  16:48  
Yeah. So to add to add, what should happen, then? I mean, I mean, I know, in my view that you should have a plan you should, to to transition, but you should also have a post transition plan of some form that that, that, that not just measures, benefits that deals with people, you know, some of these projects, we've had people on them for 2,3,4 years, you know, deals with people as their aspects of what they do next, and all sorts of things that, you know, how do we how do we, how do we change that so that we do actually review and finish and properly and close the project after having seen the value been delivered?

Jonathan Parnaby  17:33  
Yeah, I think I think there's two conversations we need to have, I think there's there's one around the transition, and unless quite a change hats on, because we know that season one labour and ocm organisational change management. So let's let's talk about that first. Because I think that's an important conversation, in relation to change, and and how you get free transition sometimes, because it's so pivotal is so vital to the effort. And practice is also equally as important, if not probably more important, let's have that conversation on measure measuring benefits, and actually how change is so critical to the value piece. And what what we should do or people or programmes should be thinking about in that space. So why don't we start with the transition? Yeah, so in my mind, this needs to be figured out a way before transition, don't start thinking about transition at transition, obviously. But you know, if you're working with a programme of work or business transformational initiative, you'll already have an idea of kind of how that change will be cut over into that organisation. So whether that's a big bang, wherever it's being phased, whether it's being piloted, and all those kinds of things should already be clear. And if it's not, come knocking, go knocking on the programme managers go and start having that conversation because the change team, and you know, change professionals need to know that and also help influence it as well, where you feel that maybe a big bang approach is is way too, way too risky and call will cause a lot of change issues in the organization's that all needs to be figured out and structured upfront. That's that's kind of number one. But also, you know, the who's going to support the business through that transition. Now, if you've already got a controller in you've probably already got your change ambassador and change champions already saying we're nervous about the go live. And this is why we're nervous. So we have an issue. Who do we call? We call the programme team. They've got dedicated CPUs as in play, you know, what, what's the the mechanism that's going to be put in to help support that that also needs to be thought about, especially when you're rolling out common, more big bangs, or even if it's a regional rollout, if you've got multiple sites that you're turning, or going live with at the same time, you've got to, you've got to kind of work out their lives. Go challenges of how do you support an entire region and business? Over on the same day

Ian Kingstone  20:07  
added is logistics, isn't it? It's Yeah, it is not just the, it's having all that support. But it's also depending on what your programme is. And some of the ones where you and I've worked on together over the years as I've had multi port, multiple sites with different things going on, and not always the same thing, different sites different, you know, same and different times, or things are gonna happen at one site before they can happen another. And so there's a series of events if you want transition events that are going on, but that not only need managing, but they need supporting and like you said, need understanding for the individual changes that are going on for those people in those places.

Jonathan Parnaby  20:54  
Yeah, and it's a case like going back to our last episode about readiness. Hopefully, the business is ready. Yeah, we're kind of assuming tech businesses. And actually, now what we're saying is, is the programme or project or whatever the mechanism is that delivering this change is that now ready and prepared to provide that support for those individuals going through change? And it's not just a case of emotional support. But you know, also, I go back to your education go back to capability, I might have been trained on this thing. But three days later, the pressures on I've got these orders to put through I forgotten, two thirds of it's gone. What do you do? You know, how do we how do we plug that gap quickly? How do we reassure? How do we get people on site next to next to whoever to kind of help that person through and it just did just nice thinking about like that, that whole support transition, where we call it super user networks. hypercard, or I don't, I don't really care what it's called, because I sort of call them different things, but it needs it needs a good proper structure. And this is where for me, the change team starts to earn their crust. Because they're now that, you know, they've always been that kind of voice to the business. But the programme and actually, the control rooms, I would be dialling up the frequency, very low, even daily stand ups with them or somethng thing during that time. So you're getting that feedback or hot of the press. This is working well up in Scotland, while in the southeast, it's not the wheels have fallen off because you know, x, y z or other super users, and they didn't turn up where they should have done on time, or maybe they were supposed to get to a site and their car broke down. And suddenly now, three sides in the region are left exposed. All these kinds of things can possibly go wrong and will go wrong. And but it's getting that feedback. So you can actually add on that quickly and deal with it. And really just write out those two, three weeks of of pain because let's face it changes is hard work, right?

Ian Kingstone  23:03  
Yeah, especially

Jonathan Parnaby  23:04  
when you go live. It's the trough of despair. you were you enter into a need to ride yourself, you know, right out of that trough. So, yeah,

Ian Kingstone  23:13  
yeah. Okay.

Jonathan Parnaby  23:15  
Yeah. So so even I mean, just exploring that kind of topic a bit further, maybe using some examples in our experience, like, what what have you done on your programmes to kind of help with the change during that transition period? What kind of words from your perspective?

Ian Kingstone  23:29  
Well, it's kind of funny, actually, as you were talking through it, I don't know why. But my thoughts went back to I was doing a tech project in a dairy in Somerset, quite a big dairy 24 seven dairy, lots of chilled creams and that type of products so if you left them outside or they were in the rock the lorry for too too long, they'd go off and we supply all the major supermarkets so you know your Sainsbury's and Tesco and all of that type of thing. So every morning quite early, lorries turn out, pick up a load of cartons and staff fill loads of cartons of lorries with cream and dairy type products and drive off and supermarket now we're changing the order management system and the the dispatch type system of the of the dairy. So, you know, the last thing you want is not going out to get the right orders onto the right lorry and all that type of thing and it's all chilled goods

Jonathan Parnaby  24:37  
Quite risky then?.

Ian Kingstone  24:39  
Yeah, so we, we, we we planned we put that we practice to doing a cutover which is a good thing that we you know, we practice a cat over to the new system from the old dress rehearsal. Yeah, yeah. And we actually saw the labels and all the things that needed to happen and done it several times. But we had a new way. I have of kind of getting the drivers that drive up to these bays that they could then be loaded into a big site. And, and we have a lot you know, a lot of care attached to that. Anyway, the day we went live the the wide area network to the site. On the morning we went live for the first time went down. And the reason it had gone down was because they dug up the road somewhere for something else. And taken this this line out. So they were they were there. So it was going to get fixed reasonably quickly. But the day the morning we went live and I had lorries, queuing all the way down the main road container, because we know we couldn't get these these that we couldn't print off the right documents to get the rice in a right to work out which needed to go where and which vehicle and all of that stuff. That was Yeah, now. Now, although it was quite an interesting morning. For me. The The good thing was that we had done quite a lot of change work with the guys on overload in and what really surprised me on that day. And this is probably more about support. But it's around thinking about that transition was that those guys just suddenly kind of remembered and cane rallied and supported and the people in the office who were doing the done the audit take who've been through the test room, when worked on the you know, just having hands on, on into the warehouse, so to speak the chilled warehouse and helped sort out getting these things on the vehicles. Then the only other challenge we had to deal with that day was the system also sent ahead to the likes of Sainsbury's and Tesco, those these advanced stock notes. Yeah, and if Sainsbury's don't have them, they don't let let you deliver the product. Yeah, you've got a product on the vehicle, it's off down the road managers didalam, amazingly, but they'll just turn it away. And then you've got to write that stock off, you know, because it's his crew, right or whatever. So So um, so some real challenges, but we got through it, we got through it. Because I think we had enough people around enough people at practice and enough, I call the network change agents, if you want weren't deemed as change agents. But those people around shift supervisors, people from from, like I say, from the front office, that kind of so that was a bit of a disaster. But it just I don't know, when when you were talking about the transition, and you're talking about people's cars breaking down and things that can go wrong. That that just made me think of that example? And how that those kind of changes? And how, how having an ability to get a quick stand up, right, you're going to do this, you're going to do that. And we practice that didn't we the printers go down, we can do this way. You know, it's that kind of work, which is, you know, good to do in transition. Certainly on 24, seven, large manufacturing operation.

Jonathan Parnaby  28:16  
Imagine pressure being quite high that day.

Ian Kingstone  28:19  
You know what I was absolutely. Obviously, on the day, I wasn't feeling this way. But, you know, a couple of days later, I actually thought because we were successful, we got everything out. And it will work we've got the line back. And we managed to send off the you know, the ASN's and things like that. And you know, so when you actually when you look at it, you think about that whole situation I was I was well, chuffed that we've done all that work, around taking people through the change journey, taking people through, this is the old ways to do it. Now, this is a new way you used your do it. And they would ask questions about well, what if that breaks? And because we've spent the time doing that? You know, they're prepared. We've got that. Yeah. And prepared. Exactly.

Jonathan Parnaby  29:06  
Yeah. You kind of thought about those contingencies up front. And, you know, and, and you built into the change preparation, and therefore, we paid dividends because you managed to get for quite a significant issue, which is, well we can accept or not do anything then well, that's not an option. So

Ian Kingstone  29:24  
and we built a plan that was plan ready was a recovery plan, wasn't it? And yeah, I mean, that was part of the project admittedly, but it worked. Yeah. On the first day

Jonathan Parnaby  29:42  
I think that's good. It's good to to explore that because I think sometimes think there's pulling your hand example out on our spring some of this stuff to life, right. And so yeah, now choose fi and I think, let's kind of round off the conversation then. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask the question to you, which is more around you know, it's all So that transition. Now let's talk about post go live realisation adoption. So I'm talking like one month, 2,3,6 months after the event that's happened is is less about measuring? So my first question is, and you know it and I know it, it's why don't businesses measure value? And why don't we we spend enough time after go live to check that the change has been embedded? And, yeah, when we all know, it's important business case, how are we going to get 3 million pounds in efficiencies and more revenue and conversion rates and all these kinds of things. And yet, when it comes to the point when we delivered something is next.

Ian Kingstone  30:44  
But I think there's several reasons. And I don't want to get too much into the benefits process, because this is more about change management. But But I just want to talk a little bit about that, I think the challenge of benefits management is quite challenging. So I think, even though if you do do a good job of business case, explaining the benefits and get to a degree on some of these larger projects, you're changing the matrix in what you're doing, you're changing. And you might record something one way today, that's not being recorded tomorrow, because you've changed the working practices, hence the change. And you've changed the metrics in the way you might measure things. So a lot of organisations and projects lose their way when they need to be able to measure the new way of working. And they need to be able to compare it to the old way of working to say, Oh, yeah, it's it's made the difference we were expecting. So I think benefits management can be challenging in that kind of understanding where you were before where you are, when you've transitioned to be able to measure it. And because of that, I think people don't necessarily follow it through in the actual project and doing all the work that's required. So when you transition, you can measure the value. And then when you transitioned, you then have lost that want to measure it, to see what I mean. So that's one. That's, that's one thing. And I think so I think the actual problem of benefits management and measurement and benefits realisation, measurement, and challenge actually starts very early on in a project, not at the end. But even the ones that have done that bit of work, I agree, you go live, things happen. And and and then people get pulled into other ways. And even senior management don't put pressure on to understand, actually, and we actually too drunk drive driven the value that we wanted. And for me personally, that that really done. Really cheesed me off actually, because the whole point in doing that value management type benefit management realisation type activity is to the bed changing. Yeah. And, you know, if you, if you're not getting the benefits that you expected, what have you got to change to get them? Or are they not now possible, for one reason or another. But it's understanding that mechanism, not whether you've actually hit a nice financial number, it's understanding that you are where you expect it to be, or you're not where you expect it to be. And therefore, what should you be doing to drive expectations, and other and the other part of that is that quite often, you you'll find that there are other benefits to be had, that you didn't expect, then you can go after. So by not doing it by just doing the change, and then kind of moving on, and not doing that kind of thing. So not to harp too much on about benefits management. But I think we miss a lot of things by not doing that kind of realisation type process, not just not bending, the changing, we miss new change that we could go into a project. And we miss, you know, next time we take a business case to the executive. Well, we didn't see the benefits from the last project. So how do I know I'm gonna get them from this kind of conversation as well. So if I just I just think you've not finished we've not done what you said you were going to do Never mind the sustainable change piece which I know we need to talk about.

Jonathan Parnaby  34:30  
Yeah, and I completely I think first I'll apologise a little bit to the audience because I know we probably cover some of these conversations and mid-season break, right? But then I'm not gonna apologise properly because it's so bloody important. So I don't care if we talked about this twice, three times. Maybe this is a reoccurring theme that comes up in every season of our, our podcast. It's just so important. I can't it's obviously it's important course it is what this the reason is the why But it frustrates the hell out of me that this doesn't happen. I don't get it.

Jonathan Parnaby  35:05  
And then, but then, you know, we get to the next programme of work, and then we put another business case together. And then the execs go guys are going to pay for itself. And we should say, well, we don't know. We don't measure it. But we don't we obviously, yeah, so good. And then off we go. And it's blind faith, no free time. And it's, it's scary, you know? Because some things are going to generate lots of benefits, because we just assume that, but in this in changing the ways of work is going to do it. But maybe won't.

Ian Kingstone  35:40  
It's almost it's almost like, you go live, and you're celebrating your success again, like we haven't actually been successful, particularly it go live.

Jonathan Parnaby  35:50  
You hit a milestone, great. Well done.  It's an important one. But your journey is just beginning.

Ian Kingstone  35:56  
Yeah, so in nine months time or 12 months? Are you still doing things? And yeah, things need to change, don't get me wrong, it's not going to stay the same as exactly how you businesses need to move along. But but but are you sustaining the value that you said you were gonna do by the, in some of the programmes and projects, you and I have done the multiple millions of pounds that you've spent on them?

Jonathan Parnaby  36:20  
Yeah, I think when you're in an organisation that's adopting proper programme management frameworks and principles, there is less risk of this happening. reason why I say that is obviously because you've got tranches of work that you've worked out, you've got a dossier or projects that you've you've highlighted that you need, they're all been sequenced and accordingly and obviously, at the programme level, you aren't doing or shouldn't be doing the the benefits realisation piece that kind of sits holistically around the whole thing. So when you're going live with your first project, and your second projects, and your third projects within the, within the programme, you've got mechanisms to help make sure that it's actually doing something. And resources are still there, they've not gone away. So I think you've got more chance of success and measuring, if you're running it properly, as a programme, where I see it fall down a lot, is when you've got a portfolio. And in that portfolio, they'd kind of passed everything as a project. Like any got different project managers on these things, and hopefully, it's changed, change people if you're lucky. And they go live done, right, like give the next project the next project. And it's like a conveyor belt of stuff that just keeps getting thrown to the different resources to get it over the line and delivered. So, so yeah, I think the for me, like having that mechanism, having the resources in place, and you know, someone's job that is to do to make sure, are we you know, we're coming up to the end of our first tranche of work, and we've delivered four or five projects in phase one. Are we on track? Because if not, we need to be turning this programme.

Ian Kingstone  37:58  
Well, or changing it or restructuring? Or if it's not driving the right outcomes? Why is it doing it? You know, then then, you know, what do we need to do to drive the right outcomes? Because we obviously haven't, that we might have delivered some projects, but we haven't delivered the programme If you want, we haven't delivered the tranche, as you call it, you know, the?

Jonathan Parnaby  38:23  
MSP yeah,

Ian Kingstone  38:26  
no, but that's absolutely right. But you're right. And that doesn't get I mean, I think if you've got a good structure. And if you've got a benefits realisation team, or people or person or you know, then that's a key thing you can put in place up front to make that key thing that but even then I've seen that happen, even under my own management, where it doesn't report enough through the programme to get the right, the right voice if you want to allow the right things to happen. But I don't think it's all about benefits. I think it's about sustainable change. And I think that's actually a better from from my point of view and moving forward is, you know, I talk about people centric, value driven programmes a lot today. And I think the, the value driven bit, sometimes gets lost along the way. And we've got to keep bringing that back into the picture. But but but I think it's about sustainable change as well. So it's about we put the change in. It's not just about the financial numbers. It's about how we make the change stick. And I think, I think does it need to stick? Have you found something out on the journey that says the change isn't exactly what we thought it was at the beginning, but doesn't matter? What now then how do we maintain and stick that Do you see what I mean? So that whole whole piece that Other than a benefits realisation process, how, you know, I don't think there's necessarily a great set of tools out there yet to methods out there yet to to, to do that.

Jonathan Parnaby  40:12  
I agree. I agree it definitely is a gap, isn't it? I mean, I know there are tools out there. And I know there are frameworks out there for benefits realisation but it's definitely a space that could do with more support. So we say,

Ian Kingstone  40:26  
yeah, the things I've tried in the past, some been more successful than others. So you bait the numbers into the actual figures. So putting something into an organisation that's got already a set that set of those kind of capabilities. If you want, then then you bake those numbers into the budgets of the people that and then you get baked into their, and their renumeration, or their bonuses and things like that, that can usually drive some of that, but that's a bit more big stick for me, I, I I'd rather not have to do it that way. And there is a lot of controversy that way, when you get into benefits management around double Yeah, I was already going to make that number, whether you've made this change or not kind of compensation. But But, um, but I think there's got to be a part of the programme, you know, the close of the programme that measures the retrospect, that the that type of thing that really measures the change? And how do you measure measure changes embedded? Yeah, you know, and it's in the process is in the people, as much as it's in technology and the numbers? Yeah,

Jonathan Parnaby  41:35  
I agree. And I think maybe it's kind of like, let's start wrapping this conversation up. But you know, we thought about control rooms as a mechanism, obviously, that feedback. And what why wouldn't you continue to run new control rooms post, go live post transition, the running in months after, after that fact. So that you can still still get that feedback, maybe two months down the line, defining new issues that come out that new issues, and maybe in the process, because there are certain conditions that we're considered maybe some nice, you know, use cases that have cropped up whatever these things may be. I think it's just good practice to, to kind of have that, that support in place. So he's about the peaceful. Thanks,

Ian Kingstone  42:19  
Jonathan, I think that's got real legs. Because I think two things there really, first thing you need to think about that up front, so you budget for that to happen. But that the other thing, which I think is why it's got real legs is that I've not where we've put control rooms into organisations to manage change. I've never heard, I've never heard a bad thing said about them, I've never heard of them, that didn't work very well, or that didn't, I've always call that that was a great way of doing that, you know, you know that those types of things. So and I've always heard what we should do that for this. And we should do that for that kind of approach to control rooms, which is positive. So So actually, I think leaving that control room in place, leaving it in place for for a period of time, and justifying that, almost at the outset of the control room, that's what you do, rather than just agreeing with wherever the control room is, yeah, I think would only would only gain, you know, favour from from the organisation and the people in the control room and around it, because I've never seen anybody feel negative about that process

Jonathan Parnaby  43:35  
needs to be obviously considerations, like if you've got the core programme team that delivered this technical change, then you know, but the people kind of side of it still kind of hanging on supporting that might be loop backs into certain technical change. So it just means that obviously, whatever kind of technical teams that are in place, they should have transitioned to your business as usual operation. You know, if you take your ITIL service transition, it should be fully managed in your current structures. It's just linking in with those now, rather than linking in with your, your test team that you had. So manage that

Ian Kingstone  44:12  
introduction in managed service interaction, you get put into service manager if there's technically project, but you can still have the control room there. There's measuring alongside and that's agreed on why that's agreed, because then that gets people to focus on sustaining, sustaining it from it and driving from it. So I think that's achievable,

Jonathan Parnaby  44:33  
or not doing Fingers crossed, like change works. 

Jonathan Parnaby  44:36  
And actually, it helps with that service introduction process is managed properly, and it has validation, because it's like, I'm not just throwing this over the fence to you guys, to now support and look out for that service. You know, I'm not just throwing it over to service management. Yes, yeah. And when we're doing that in a controlled way, yeah. But I've also got this control room that's going to continue eyes on it. For a period of time with you, yeah, to make sure we've really got this thing, right, rather than I know from working the other side and working introduction into big organisations that, that that, that he can feel like you just get it thrown at you and they've moved on to the next thing. Cool.

Jonathan Parnaby  45:17  
Yeah, that's, that was good. Good conversation always is you can talk forever about this stuff. I think some of it does make my blood boil. And I get quite passionate about it. But only in a good way. I think it's just it frustrates me. I'm sure it frustrates a lot of our listeners as well, who you're go through this.  I think it's a common common problem throughout the whole measuring value getting value out sustaining value, and things like that, but no, really good conversation.

Ian Kingstone  45:47  
Another thing too sorry, before we, we dash off another thing that that I think really good about that idea is that we should follow on in an optimization phase on some of these projects and programmes in our control room could be the suggestion of optimization. You know, it could be the suggestion of, or new projects, like I said, or new things that have come out or things we've found, you know, that that kind of thing. Sorry, I just did it too.

Jonathan Parnaby  46:26  
You know what it time it is Ian

Ian Kingstone  46:30  
depends? No, I think It's question time.

Jonathan Parnaby  46:34  
Question Time. Absolutely. So we've got a question from Stewart Ennew again someone else we know. Yes, good. We're getting people we know now. Maybe it's because

Ian Kingstone  46:42  
a bit worried about your questions. He always questions when I work with him.

Jonathan Parnaby  46:48  
Yeah, I think he's just testing us to be honest.

Ian Kingstone  46:51  
He usually does

Jonathan Parnaby  46:54  
In more ways than one blessing. But no we've got Stewart Ennew who has asked how do you avoid clients getting locked into the belief that technology is the only kind of enabler for transformation?

Ian Kingstone  47:07  
simple answer to that would be just not to say you can't use technology to solve this problem. That would be the simple answer. Now I know exactly what he's talking about, actually, and you do see it, often, you see, suddenly, the all the solutions are in my work at that new system, or don't use that new technology, rather than some quite simple solutions that may not need technology. And I see that a lot. Yeah, a lot of transformations are built off the back of technology, when actually a bit of process change, or maybe behavioural change in the way the organisation works, could have actually delivered the same level of value at that particular time in that in that particular way, depending on what it is all a good blend, at least of technology and non technology, it comes back to that business model thing, doesn't it as well. But but but as you move forward it, I think, I think some design thinking approaches are a good way of doing it. So so you know, taking some problems, and some, some, you know, what works well, what doesn't work well, and doing some kind of solution icing, with business people not with technology people, okay? And so, so kind of talk through the problem, get a clear definition, kind of work your way back into what those problems are. So it comes back down to something I preach about a lot, which is that all value management piece at the front end, and really understanding the business case. So therefore, you know, a lot lot of i doing that these days is that value management piece and design thinking, like I say, work with the business, go through some ideas, and then think about how you could resolve some of those challenges. And first approach them without technology, then then look at, then we'll have white technology help in that rather than going straight to talking about technology going straight to just a tech type, person or company, do a bit of envisioning the problem. Yeah, you know, and how could we resolve this problem? And what what would make that better? That's certainly one one way of doing things. Easier said than done. Mind. But yeah, yeah, I

Jonathan Parnaby  49:23  
think well, you know, obviously, to do as mentioned the word locked. So it's kind of like, they've already made the mind of that technology's the winner in that transformation. And, and there are few things that kind of come to my mind is, yeah, I really liked what you said about design thinking. And again, what's kind of jumped in there is sort of like kind of root cause analysis has knows, you know, but so my business analyst days of Ishikawa, the fishbone diagram, and yeah, a shout out to all the, the older BA's who have used that one. It's a great kind of tool really to kind of look What's the problem? What's the root? Cause? Keep asking why? Keep going through why until you find that recourse. And you might actually be surprised that some of these can be fixed without technology. And that's where a lot of Lean Six Sigma kind of applies its principles as well, right? Because they're looking at process reengineering redesign, not not even really considering itself on technology. And so that's kind of why that's what's kind of popped in my head where he was talking about the other thing is like, the operating model, and, and let's get strategic. So if you, you know, what, what's, what's changing in the operating model? What Why is it technology? The challenge that so you know, what we set out to do? What's the purpose? The Why? And what can the operating model? What can change in that operating model to help support that there isn't technology? Is there a restructure? Is it an engineering of processes? Is it the fact that we're just gonna change what we sell? I don't know. But, yeah, just a few things that kind of popped in there. Yeah. But it happens a lot, though. We I see a lot, most of the transformations I've worked on have been technology enabled. But I think what I try to do and I'm running transformation programmes is pay now we have those three pillars of the people process and tech. And I structured those projects and those programmes accordingly so that I can leverage, you know, the relevant things, but I hear what he's saying.

Ian Kingstone  51:28  
is a tough one.

Jonathan Parnaby  51:30  
Okay, cheers for that Stewart. Yeah, thanks, hopefully catch up for a beer at some point in the future. Probably a long time in the future, but we're gonna get there.

Jonathan Parnaby  51:43  
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the beer and butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation

Ian Kingstone  51:50  
yet, so you can contact us at the website So that's There you will find show notes on anything we've talked about in today's show, or any links to anything we've discussed. And also you can leave comments, get engaged or get involved through the website. So that's

Jonathan Parnaby  52:11  
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.

What have we been up to?
Project delivered, moving on to the next one
Two plans - transition & value
Transition plan
Change during transition
Value realisation and adoption
Sustainable change
Running change capabilities post transition
Question time
Last orders