The pub quiz is going strong, it's neck and neck but Ian & JP check in and discuss why it's important to put value first in transformations. JP talks about finally going surfing again in north Devon and actually catching some waves, discusses the new Mortal Kombat film reboot and preparing to go camping but is nervous about the windy and wet weather due. Ian is getting into a new album by Myles Kennedy "The Ides of March" whilst stacking the dishwasher. Our hosts continue to discuss the importance of putting value first and bringing to life around what value is, the various forms of value and how it needs to be applicable to everyone impacted by the changes.
Ian Kingstone 0:00
Well, what you having then Jonathan,
Jonathan Parnaby 0:05
A pint please mate
Ian Kingstone 0:06
two pints, please landlord
Jonathan Parnaby 0:08
So Ian where's our audience sitting then
Ian Kingstone 0:10
There over there, sat at that table over there?
Jonathan Parnaby 0:13
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,
Ian Kingstone 0:18
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:23
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there who have we got
Ian Kingstone 0:27
its some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:33
Cool, fantastic. Well, let's crack on lets guy over there.
Ian Kingstone 0:35
Welcome to the Beer & Butterfly
Jonathan Parnaby 0:37
A podcast where we talk transformation.
Ian Kingstone 1:03
I'm Ian Kingstone.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:05
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.
Ian Kingstone 1:06
And we're your hosts. In today's episode, we discussed that regardless of where you start in your transformation, start with value.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:13
Welcome back Ian. Good to be back in the Beer and Butterfly sitting down our favourite table with a pint ofour favourite drinks. It's good to be back again. It's good to have another topic with our new season. And but before we get into that, I think we need to talk about last episodes pub quiz that Sarah pitched to us. Great to have Sarah on. It's great if Sarah wasn't it last time and yeah,
Ian Kingstone 1:41
no, no really good. Really good. Conversations. Loved it. Yeah. Different subject we've talked about before. Really enjoyed it.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:48
And if you haven't noticed for our listeners if you haven't had a chance to check out that episode, we absolutely encourage you that you do you know if you've got any interest in procurement or work with procurement. You want to know more about it, then check out that episode with Sarah Walters from Aster. It was really good. So, Sarah asked us froma Guiness book of records perspective, what is the number of the most records held by a single person? Now she gave us three options, right? There's a multiple choice which helped us
Ian Kingstone 2:23
give an answer.
Jonathan Parnaby 2:24
Absolutely. I think we had a) 120 b) 150. And c) 200. From this is from memory so we could be absolutely wrong on a few of those but so what do you think the answer was how do I say no, I got this wrong.
Ian Kingstone 2:40
I think I went for like going for a round number. I can't remember I really can't remember I think I'll just give me the answer
Jonathan Parnaby 2:49
is 120 so that's still a lot though. Isn't it? record I wonder what they are they Is it like the amount of spoons that I've collected? Or you know the the amount of eggs that I've harvested in an hour I said I don't know I'm making this up but you know what are these records I want to know now?
Ian Kingstone 3:09
I want to know how you harvest an egg?
Jonathan Parnaby 3:11
Me too, I think clearly shows you how my mind works
Ian Kingstone 3:18
Let me help you out and get you off the subject very quickly. JP What have you been doing lately other than harvesting eggs. What have you been doing? Give What have you been up to?
Jonathan Parnaby 3:30
Yeah, I've actually got the surfboard out right cool yeah we've me a friend Kris we we've gone up to North Devon where we go Saunton Sands yesterday we managed to get a surfing session in and my god like the what the forecast that you know it's been raining for feels like an eternity but the the actual wave forecast was about four or five foot high waves and its is a bit rough out there mate to say that yeah, it was good. It was good I mean we first got in and then 20-30 minutes have passed we must have drifted pretty much to you know near Westward Ho! what felt like a good while away as we have to kind of get out and then walk back up again because the you know, the tide was just pushing you up or down. But now it's just really good to get out there of caught on waves that's always good. And it's just nice to do it so yeah, that's that was definitely a highlight for me. Film wise, I watched the the latest Mortal Kombat film. So Okay, there you go. You know I'm a gamer I've I've played Mortal Kombat since it first came out in the 90s. You familiar with it?
Ian Kingstone 4:46
Not really. And obviously the kung fu Yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 4:49
yeah, basically a fighting, a fighting game
Ian Kingstone 4:52
Where like an arcade one, isn't it?
Ian Kingstone 4:54
Yeah, it's like Street Fighter, that kind of thing. But yeah, yeah, that's
Ian Kingstone 4:57
what I was thinking about Street Fighter. That's what was in my head. Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 4:59
It's the same thing you find and jump around do fireballs and all that kind of stuff. But at the end, you do a fatality on the opponent, like rip their heads off or, and it can cause a lot of controversy actually in the 90s obvious reasons. And the games have obviously iterated over time. And then the latest one they're on now, which came out what, two, three years ago is 11 Mortal Kombat 11 and, and the new film, because I think there's original film that came out in 95, something like that. And this, there's like a reboot that they've done recently. That's actually it's stupid. But then the game is stupid. But it was really good. I really enjoyed it. It was gory as it should be. And, you know, some of the actors that got in there was really good. So I'd give that one a go. But yeah, other than that, it was just chilling out watching films, do some surfing and preparing to go camping this weekend. That's all you got this weekend. Yeah, we're going to Cornwall, down near Looe in Cornwall, and just just for the weekend or Yeah, just the week, just a short couple of nights away and yeah, family, some friends and their family. So yeah, looking looking at the weather May I think room for wet one.
Ian Kingstone 6:20
Yeah, I think this. I didn't want to say Really? That's kind of what's going through. My mind was windy and wet. But then you say that if I looked at the weather forecast today, it was awful. Yeah. This afternoon has been all rain and a bit windy. But this morning was beautiful.
Jonathan Parnaby 6:38
Exactly. We'll get pockets. But yeah,
Ian Kingstone 6:40
Jonathan Parnaby 6:41
So it will be what it will be and we'll get on with anyway. I'll shut up. How about you? What have you been doing?
Ian Kingstone 6:46
Not great deal. I think I say that every time though so and so? Well, from now, I can't think of a movie. I've watched recently that there's not something I've watched 1000 times. So no great movie to talk about. I'm afraid for music front. I've listened to a new album by Myles Kennedy and the Ides of March which which is which is good. Really good actually quite enjoy it. I don't know if you know Myles Kennedy. He's he is a singer that's sung with Slash quite a bit, but he's also in a band called Outerbridge. So he's got quite distinctive voice, but he does his own solo stuff. So I really enjoyed that and listening to that a lot. So for anybody who likes that kind of music, that is a great listen from as far as I'm concerned.
Jonathan Parnaby 7:39
I think I need to do more or listening to two albums, you know, because I get I get kind of lost in, you know, Spotify stations and playlists and I just, you just kind of press play, don't you and off it goes and
Ian Kingstone 7:53
I make a purpose of listening to a whole if you want album, I
Jonathan Parnaby 7:57
Ian Kingstone 7:58
thank you for that, you know. And, and it's because when I was younger, that's what used to do. I used to wait till something came out and I've got the money to buy a record and then I would listen to it track by track. One just one track. Track track for getting some of my favourite songs are the ones that weren't necessarily the most popular ones. You know what I mean, not the ones that everybody was talking about, necessarily. And so I've got a real kind of, I really liked to listen to them back to back a few times. Literally, that came out and I literally sat one evening with my headphones on and just listened to it again and again. And again. That's just kind of
Jonathan Parnaby 8:36
nothing was you lied to literally anything you were just literally sitting and listening
Ian Kingstone 8:41
I probably have to tell you on in the background, but I couldn't hear it because I had my headphones on. You know, and I was probably Oh yeah, but I quite often play off my phone with my headphones on. So I might go and do silly things like i'd load the dishwasher. That bit, that kind of thing. Nothing, nothing major. The other thing I've been doing actually at the moment, is I've got some I've got a set of gates at the bottom of my garden. The house I live in is kind of a bit odd where the back probably used to be the front many years ago. And so there's kind of some quite wide gateway opening. So I put some wooden gates up there used to have a kind of a farm gate on it. And I put some wooden gates up there after my lawnmower got stolen twice out of the shed. So put these big six foot or seven foot wooden gates down the bottom some years ago and concreted the wooden posts in and everything anyway times gone on I've painted them several times. They've now rotted to the extent of when I open them now. They kind of almost fall off I kind of lift them up and hope is not gonna snap you know, and there's holes in it and, and because I've got you know big dog and stuff I don't particularly want and this The end of my garden is also a school. I don't want you know, the gate blow open or whatever, I can't shut it properly, I can't lock it properly. So you know, I need to replace them anyway, long story short, it's a bit of a DIY boring kind of conversation, but I decided I'm going to order some new gates. And I've decided to go for these aluminuim gates, one because they should be light to hang. And then I go into this whole world of planning, organising DIY type pain, because I've measured these gates. And so right, I'll buy this set, I found a set online and whatever, and looked at the instructions and all this kind of stuff before. And then I got into this kind of what I want a lock. So I thought I can all do that and did all the sums and kind of added it all up and stuff. And then I suddenly thought, but wait a minute. You know, with wood, if you get it wrong, you can plane it a bit, or you can manipulate that bit here or whatever in the post, you can change it anyway, got this whole world not to belong this conversation too much. But I go into this whole world of aluminium gates and then thinking well, wait a minute, you can't do that. There bloody metal. And I haven't got the cutting tools to
Jonathan Parnaby 11:15
Have you got a lave?
Ian Kingstone 11:17
Yeah, I've got the capital to cut out. A lock in. So then I'm bringing up this company, can you put the lock in for me? How much would that cost? Then I kind of measured it's really tight on adjustments. And I think well wait a minute. If I attach it to the wall, and then there's a problem at the bottom anyway, so I ended up getting some aluminium kind of metal posts and buying gates, they're slightly short, because then at least I can bring it in. And then I don't have a problem. I might have a little gap at the side. But it'll only be a little gap. Do you know what I mean? So anyway, that's
Jonathan Parnaby 11:50
what you'll say is that what you're saying? Is Season One was your limestone wall, season two is now your aluminium gates. Yeah, absolutely hopefully they won't rot. In the pictures they look like wood.
Jonathan Parnaby 11:59
Ian Kingstone 12:08
it's not a woodgrain. effected, they're painted. But if you stood back from them, they look like like wood. So anyway, that's boring, boring DIY kind of rubbish.
Jonathan Parnaby 12:17
But welcome listeners to our DIY Podcast. Let's move on, shall we?
Ian Kingstone 12:24
Yeah, I think we should.
Jonathan Parnaby 12:26
So it was What is today's topic, allabout what what are we here to discuss today and in the pub,
Ian Kingstone 12:33
are really about value? And about transformation? For me starts with value, you know, last season talked about the heart of that being change? Yeah. What's the rationale? Why you transforming what you're trying to do? How'd you know you've transformed and all these different things that I put around value? I you know, so when I kind of look at any kind of transformation programme is kind of, you know, why transform? Well, well, you know, you want to stay relevant. You've been maybe you've been disrupted in your industry or whatever. And, but when you actually come down to the crux of what does that all mean? Is how is your organisation or how your function or whatever it is that you're transforming? How's that? You know, how's it staying relevant? And therefore, how is it maintaining or adding value? And by value, I don't just mean, you know, financial kind of value type thing? I don't mean like, Oh, you know, it's just
Jonathan Parnaby 13:40
a million pounds.
Ian Kingstone 13:42
Yeah, exactly. I don't, I don't think of value purely as, as the financial gain if you want or increase in revenue, or kind cost, although that is value, don't get me wrong. But the value can also you know, it's, it can mean any of the benefits, or improvements perceived as beneficial for any of the stakeholders within that organisation, or external to that organisation, or your customers, or your consumers or depending on what industry you're in. So, so, you know, why transform stay relevant, you know, being disrupted more and more, how do you still stay relevant? Well, in my eyes, you maintain and add value. Yeah. And then try and add new value. So, so that's kind of what today is about. And I can kind of talk you through kind of how how I look at if you want the value management discipline, I suppose across a transformation programme, and, and why I think it's pretty important, we can kind of discuss that, that kind of topics, so to speak. That's good. So that's, that's what I want to get into.
Jonathan Parnaby 14:54
Yeah, I think it's a great topic. I think, you know, we skirted around it in season one, but few times I know in our mid season break, we talked about, you know why we need to talk about why. And an area from a change management perspective. Once we you kind of get past that go live point, and you're looking at business adoption, and the kind of realisation aspects there is it, you know, and that's probably more around, you know, unlocking the value once you've got everything in play. So that's not really storing the value. But that's kind of unlocking hopefully, what you started with, or starting with the target or, or foresight upfront, but yeah, like I say, we skirted around it. So I think it's good to just start this episode to really drill down in some of these things. So yeah, I'm excited to get into this.
Ian Kingstone 15:43
Before we actually get into value, though, I also want to and I think we've talked about this a little bit before, and I've certainly heard this conversation quite a lot. But I think it's important to kind of have a bit of a discussion around it, which is, you know, to be successful, you know, is by adding value or generating value or more whatever that value creation, let's call it but you also kind of need to understand in my mind, the difference between change and transformation. And we've talked about this before we're in the change piece, that kind of reminders of that really in my how I look at, you know, change being a better version of something you've already got, if you want Yeah. And it's it's so change can generate more value. But for me transformation drives new value, if you want
Jonathan Parnaby 16:41
okay to bring that to life then say give us an example of of change, a change. And this is not to be confused of organisational change management as a discipline but change in
Ian Kingstone 16:54
transformation. Don't get me wrong. Every transformation has changed in it. Yes, most transformations I see have chang. But it is a What is that? George Westerman thing. We talked about it before.
Jonathan Parnaby 17:05
Ian Kingstone 17:06
Yeah, so that's to take digital transformation, which was his his statement. When digital transformation is done right is like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. Yeah, there's something transforming. But when done wrong, it's like having, you know, a really fast caterpillar (on a skateboard). Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So So when you look at that, from a value perspective, and a change in transformation, I look at change is old value. Yeah, it doesn't mean it's wrong. Meaning
Jonathan Parnaby 17:36
enhancing what we have?
Ian Kingstone 17:37
Yeah, exactly. a better version of something. Yeah 2.0. Yeah, exactly. Whereas transformation, in my mind drives new value value you didn't have before. Yeah. So you know, you're almost disrupting by doing that,
Jonathan Parnaby 17:53
that could be tapping into new markets, as an example,new business model.
Ian Kingstone 18:00
Yeah, new way of doing things, new offering that kind of thing. So I think it's really important because there's a definition straight away of value, or two different definitions of value, is existing value and increasing it and then there's new value. And that that kind of segues nicely into, you've got to put value into context. Your version of value might be different than my version of value.
Jonathan Parnaby 18:29
So what do you mean by that?
Ian Kingstone 18:32
Well, as I said earlier, you know, value doesn't necessarily mean financial benefits expected, you know, it can mean any improvement is beneficial to internal external stakeholders as a statement. And so I might go into one organisation, or talk with one organisation or being an organisation that, that looks at value, as Yeah, maybe increasing revenue. Yes, another organisation may might look at value as being or, or functions. So it's in context with the stakeholders. So a good example is if you go and talk to a CFO about the value, the Chief Financial Officer about certain value, and you might have a different conversation than you might go in talking to, say, a production director or a CEO, they might have a different version of value there, you know, and in respect to what they do, or so kind of be functional, it can kind of be by company, you know, it's not just return on investment in transformation programme.
Jonathan Parnaby 19:40
So in that respect, when we talked about this in from an organisational change management, discipline perspective, it's the same principle right? You got different stakeholders have different needs. And actually, you know, the, the impacts to one stakeholder versus another can be wildly different than the way that you, you deal with that communicate and educate and Getting people ready is more of a personalised thing. So again, from a value perspective, like, like you said, what I perceive as value can be wildly different to what you perceive. And it's important to understand the different viewpoints of that. So it's not just what we've only got one value here, one definition, and that's mine, which is 5 million pounds.
Ian Kingstone 20:20
Yeah. So so you you might see value as being more competitive in the market. Yeah, I might see value as being defending against competitors, or something, do you see what I mean as a bad example, but, but it's got to be relevant to to, you know, use an individual, which comes back to the people thing, which is why value and changes so interrelated, we can get into it a bit. But so I always kind of think values contextual. And I also think that people think about value in different ways. Sometimes value can drive more an emotional response. So the value of something might be because it's easier for me to do, or I feel better about it when I'm doing it. So I say you could create value in a product because it makes you feel good. Do you see what I mean? That that kind of thing. So and that opens it right up. So I think when you talk about value and value management, you've got to think of the context of this, the stakeholders that that you're engaging with, and then I think you've got to think about so you know, value might be different by organisations by functions, it also might be different by stakeholders. So he, you could start to look at, you know, and there's, there's, there's, you know, there's elements of value. You know, inspirational value might be hope, for example, or, or social responsibility type value. Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 21:49
We need to be greener, we need to be carbon neutral
Ian Kingstone 21:52
Yeah, exactly, yeah. Individual value might be, you know, personal kind of things like design, or aesthetics of something or, or it reduces anxiety, if you do or is fun. Yeah, and it's got perks, whereas kind of, and then there's, you know, career kind of values like marketability or reputation, or something like that, you know, what I mean? So, when you look across an organisation across functions, different people have different views of value. And, you know, when we, we often find it in our projects, we measure things like productivity, or operational or strategic, economical or performance values, you know, like, improved top line cost reductions, or product quality, or sustainability or, or, you know, it decreased hassles, or, you know, removing barriers or something like that, that those are usually what we measure in a transformation programme. And we might get into things like responsiveness or, you know, relationships or ease of doing business or time saving, Excuse me, time saving or, or reduced effort type value cases, and benefits cases, if you want to call them that. Right down to, you know, other things that everybody knows is value like price. Yeah, it's an acceptable price, or it or it's, it's ethical, it meets ethical standards, kind of table stakes stuff. So, so it's different values different by by organisation, but it's also different by stakeholders are tried to explain and not everybody understands this, when they're trying to look at a business transformation. So you know, if you're an owner of a company, or the board of the company, you know, you'll have a different view of value, you know, then than, say, an end user of a system, you might be there as part of your transformation, you know, an end user of a system might look at value as life being easier, making our lives easier, in a department manager might look at it as as helping the department perform.
Jonathan Parnaby 24:07
I want someone less stressed at month end
Ian Kingstone 24:10
yeah, exactly. A senior manager might look at it the impact on their business initiatives, whereas a board director might look at it on the impact of business objectives type thing, and a customer will look at it from the value of the products or services you're doing. So you've so you've got to think about value across lots of different places and aligning stakeholders and mindsets on that value as part of your transformation, so so that's
Jonathan Parnaby 24:34
interesting. You mentioned customers like because we can all think of you know if you tell your hobbies or, or brands that we shop with or through and you know think about them, you know what, why do we think that's value? When we buy this particular product or when we use this particular service? What is it that we feel is value? Is it because we is cheap? Is it because actually The quality of what we're getting is really good. And it's gonna last, you know, we all have different even as customers and you break those customers down, we all have different perceptions of what value is to us. Right? So it's, it's quite nebulous is there I think when you you know, it's it's good to kind of bring this to life a little bit because values a word, that can be anything.
Ian Kingstone 25:21
Exactly. But but bringing it right back to transformation, why we're harping on about that is, is for me is, if you can find in a transformation programme, how, by what you're doing, or why you're transforming? Or or, you know, what value is it driving? And if you can understand what value is driving, then the right there is a rationale for that transformation, right? Yeah, there's a case for it, that's driving value. And then, and now at the perfect for me, the perfect transformation is one that adds value for all those different stakeholders, internal and external. Because if you can find value for the end users, you can find value for the people who are, you know, right, the way up to the board, if you want, if you can find value for customers and suppliers and the owner of the company. Do you see what I mean? Does that Yeah, exactly. So so if you if you can add value in that way, or new value, as well as just traditional value, then why would? Why would you do it? Exactly. That may cost too much. So it might be that it's not that the business cases is difficult, but that it, you're more likely to succeed, I think if you if you've got value as I would put it for everyone, because then you help in the change journey, coming back to our whole, you know, change conversation, if people understand the value, and there's some value in it. for them. You're at that what's in it for me?
Jonathan Parnaby 26:54
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. you're answering that real fundamental question as an impacted stakeholders. What's in it for me? Well, this is what's in it for you. I'm not gonna say names, because you know, we're just gonna go to Fred and Dave, again,
Ian Kingstone 27:08
you get into that business case conversation, then if all you're doing is trying to put a business case together, to get an ROI, to get a return on investment to get the board or whoever to sign off for you to do your transformation, then you forget about that whole value. And you're just delivering features and functions of maybe a system or whatever. Yeah, you've lost. I think, personally, I think that's a big reason why that 70% of transformations fail. It's a massive reason. Whereas if you've got value in what you're trying to deliver, and you've you've been clear with that bright from the vision, right the way through to the you know, kind of benefits case, and business case, that the value it's adding in, you've gained and aligned, aligned people on that value. And it's really important to align people on that value. Your change discussions are so much more easier. Your change plans are so much more further developed before your boss. Yes, exactly. You people can understand what you're trying to do, they can see where you're trying to go and what you're trying to do. And then as you get into that project, so you know, value isn't just about writing a business case to get us to sign off spending some money to put a new system in. You know, I just had a conversation with a company about looking to upgrade any ERP system. And I said, why would you want to spend millions of pounds upgrading in the ERP system? You might have to because if supportability, right. But why would you want to do that without looking at now what you need from that ERP? what value you could get out of that upgrade? is it just an upgrade? Or is it a change programme or even a transformation programme? an upgrade to me starts as a change programme. Why wouldn't you be a transformation programme? Why wouldn't you look at that as an opportunity to look at how can I drive new value from a modern ERP or from changing the ways we work now? Whatever. So is that value first value upfront thinking?
Jonathan Parnaby 29:13
The Yeah, sorry. Do you think there's a fear attached to this? It's a really good point. Where you say what, why wouldn't you make this transformation programme? And do you think there's a fear attached to I don't want it to be a transformation programme because it starts to feel really big. He starts to feel really, you know, the kind of goes beyond beyond what I can handle, maybe? I don't know, I'm just I'm just thinking out loud of companies thati've worked with.
Ian Kingstone 29:44
it for the sake of us need a new version of the system and you're not going to change anything and there's no value to go after. I don't disagree with that, right? No, I don't you know, I've just changed in my car and I've got
Jonathan Parnaby 29:59
The routes the same,
Ian Kingstone 30:00
you still go to the same get it same maker car, I'm getting it from the same place. I like the car, it does what I want it to do. I don't want any other bells and whistles on it, do you not? I mean, it's just that that one's now. Old and I want the new version shiny, whatever, less miles easier to maintain that kind of stuff. Get it straight away though. The old system. I'm adding value by getting a new one. Because the old system is going to cost me more to maintain. Yeah. So I am there's value there. But I wouldn't say it's new value. That's change.
Jonathan Parnaby 30:34
Yes, the faster caterpillar again isn't it?
Ian Kingstone 30:36
Yeah, exactly. But and that that may be right. But ask the question, what's the value in what I'm doing? Where's the value? Why would I want to do it? And if I am going to have to spend money on a new car? Why wouldn't I look at getting some more value out of it? What else? Do I want to have it?
Jonathan Parnaby 30:55
So then lies a question is How? How do you kind of determine, well, what was the kind of swing ometer, like in terms of this should be transformational? Or this should should, this is fine to be a faster caterpillar, but I like what was the tipping point? What does that look like is that, you know, if I was if I was the CEO of a company, what was going to convince me that I need to take this into the transformation gauge part of that, that swing ometer and really look at this?
Ian Kingstone 31:26
Well, I think if you're gonna do something like putting in, keep with the ERP systems, because it's easy one to talk about. If you're going to put in a completely new ERP, you are going to change most areas of the organisation, you might as well be transformational because you're going to do that work anyway. The other thing is you don't get anything without a bit of hard work in my world. So so. So that's true. And you know, I'm not saying it has to be transformational. I'm asking the question, why wouldn't you be transformational? If you can answer me why you wouldn't? Then that sounds that's answered that question. Yeah, that I don't see many cases where the answers not been, you know, because of there's so many things hitting companies these days, changes in markets changes in, you know, disruption, and most of that disruption can be coming from technology changes. So most of the stuff we're talking about transformation is usually underpinned or enabled by technology these days. Yeah. Well, yeah, but either way, technology is supported that has, right. So so in in that kind of thing. So So, you know, again, why wouldn't you be transformational? And I think it's, it's an, and it's setting things off at the right, on the right foot, having the right value case, understanding what you're trying to achieve what you're trying to get. And that's just the giddy bit. And we'll talk in a minute about, you know, measuring value wherever you start. Really,
Jonathan Parnaby 33:01
I like that, though, I like this. It's kind of built in the case of why wouldn't you do it? You know, so it's kind of like, a need a good reason to understand why we wouldn't take this opportunity to drive the company in this direction, or unlock this new value that's potentially out there. So yeah, I think I think it's good to challenge that that thinking, isn't it and not just rely on the old? I think it's just easier if we just do the upgrade? And, again, this is why I raised the fear question, because
Ian Kingstone 33:29
generally many you start to upgrade, if you haven't asked that question. People say, oh, there's a new feature here. And is this there, and now you've been driven by features and functions, not by what the business actually needs?
Jonathan Parnaby 33:40
Yeah, not capabilities.
Ian Kingstone 33:43
And then you get in this situation where, or you don't select the right system for what actually you need. Because when you get into changing it, you think, Oh, I now need to do this to do some kind of AI machine learning. And I geared myself I wasn't configured that way to do it. And that's pretty technical. I know. But but but it's about starting off on the right foot. And it's about setting off on that value first, why are we doing this? What's the value in doing this? And then every decision along the way, how does that impact the value we're after? Or how would that maybe create more value you know, and on certainly on the transformations I work on, you can't see everything at the front end. And it's only when you get into it you can truly understand you know where there might be more value or new value you didn't see before because you haven't ventured that way before Do you see what I mean? So so you don't just write a business case to get the funding to Off you go. You you you monitor measure and grow that value as much as you can right the way through that that journey and continuously hunt value all the time. In everything you do. Or we need to change change system we did we Need to? We thought we were in design? We were going to do it this way. Now we found a problem in the business. Well, give me a value case for that. Why does the system need to change from what we originally thought? Why have you got a change request? And what's the value of that change request? You know, those types of thinking, understanding whether it really truly does add value, or it's just because somebody's always done it that way. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. And and what's the cost of that moving forward? So the business case review, but but it's, so it's managing value through the change, but not just managing it to make sure you achieve the value, which is very important, and you must do to make sure you realise the value. And also understand that when you're making decisions, you're still on track to realise the value originally thought? Or if you're not on track, why not? Is that value still available? And what other value can you go after? That but also, to Yeah, if you're not going to realise the value, why not? Is it because it's just not available? When you are wrong? Or is it because happen, right, we get it? Yeah, it can
Ian Kingstone 36:09
Hypothesis is what these things are called? Right?
Ian Kingstone 36:12
Often it's been stolen by some other initiative. But anyway. Yeah. And, and but it's also the fact that, you know, yeah, you thought this value was available. And in it, it wasn't. And it's kind of interesting, because if people know, you're going to measure the value all the way through, they're a bit more sensible at the the benefits and business case stage. Because they know you're going to measure it. Absolutely. So this is where, where it becomes a habit. And this is where we want to becomes good. And this is where leadership or value becomes good, which we'll we'll talk to you. Sorry. Cool.
Jonathan Parnaby 36:50
Yeah, now that we have this, let's bring back to your point of business case versus realisation and mesh measurement. You know, going, once, once the projects in programme are kind of delivered its phases. And, you know, I had a director that we worked with when we're pulling the business case together. And he probably, because we knew we were monitoring, our post post, the project deliverables, he was more naturally cautious actually, on what was going into that case, I think, if it had the old, kind of cultural processes of, well, we just, we need to get this thing over the lines, we can get the investment. So we can build this solution to do X, Y, Z, and I think a lot more would have gone in, but actually, because he knew that measurements going to take place. In the end, he knew that we've got checkpoints in the programme plan that says we're gonna, you know, put the dipstick in and pull it out, you know, three months, six months, nine months after those deliverables? Yeah, he was he was definitely had a different mindset going into that process, I would say. So it's interesting. You bring that
Ian Kingstone 38:00
right back. Yeah. As far as positive. So yeah, you get more of a sensible business case, usually that way, but also you get people who don't want to claim benefit, because they don't want to be put under pressure to deliver on it later. Yeah. And so, but then if they really want the project, and so but then you're starting to get to true value. Really? Absolutely. It's and what people had to do for it, and what it's going to take to do for it. So. So that's Yeah, probably even a further conversation around this. But But, you know, you really want to make sure you realise their value, as we've discussed on many occasions throughout these broadcasts, you know, and that the while you're realising it, and why do you keep tracking it through that change quite often, you can optimise it or you can see where there might be more value. And that might not be in that programme or project or whatever transformation journey. But you might be able to see where there might be other areas that you can then go after at a later date, or a programme or project that loops right around to me, if you take that right the way through the whole piece, to then be in, you know, vauue management type leadership. And the companies that do value well, through that transformation and change process, and manage value, and realise value and demonstrate the realisation of value and optimise and find more value. They're the ones that 30% have been successful. And they're the ones that can get business cases because they've got a proven track record for delivery. They're the ones that then can get the right investment for the right types of transformation, and drive things forward. And when you look at those companies that do so well go and have a look at that 30% of successful transformations. And you'll see a common theme in there as well as a holistic set of kind of transformation disciplines if you want value management benefits management is always in there.
Jonathan Parnaby 39:52
Yeah, no, it is.
Ian Kingstone 39:54
Yeah. So So to me, that leadership, bit of as of leading transformation by driving it from, you know, bleeding with starting with value first type of approach. That to me is the ones that make the difference. So so and that's why I kind of, if you want to swear by No, no, for me is the raising the bar, you know what I mean?
Jonathan Parnaby 40:20
Your epitath that will be on your grave Yeah.
Ian Kingstone 40:26
Some days, you know, he's the value guy, you know, Mr. benefits over there.
Jonathan Parnaby 40:33
For our listeners Ian, try and pull what you said, which is great kind of, you know, taken us through, you know, the journey of putting value first and why you should do that. But how can you kind of bring some of this stuff to life? You know, what does good look like when you start this transformation? programme, so let's say is a transformation programme, you've got a mission, you've got a vision statement, you know, we kind of know, roughly, from us CEO board level perspective, where you know, the targets looking to be roughly high level by how would you go about getting to that next level of lifestyle,
Ian Kingstone 40:33
I start at vision. Okay, so the first place I start, if you could kind of think of the method I would use, if I was in the programme, I would look at doing a bit of work on from the strategy, and envisioning how you make that strategy a reality. And looking at types of things that make that strategy theory about the reality. And at the same time, I'm doing change management, because I'm aligning stakeholders, yeah. upfront, to align them on that vision that drives into so they can see at a very high level, what things are, could we go after, you know, their design thinking, what things could we go after? What What, what would good look like? And then you say, Well, okay, what would we need to do to get that? Or what's that worth? And if it's it, that's if it's, if it's an opportunity, it's what's that worth? What would it look like? If it's an issue, ie a problem, something that we don't have the capability to do? or whatever? What if you did have the capability to do what would be worth? What would it be worth? So it's just kind of same kind of question. So doing that kind of envisioning that kind of that piece at a very high level to start with aligning people on it, getting people to see what they're where they see that value in putting that value in context for that organisation.
Jonathan Parnaby 42:28
So very exploratory very much. Yeah. Tapping into people's mind. Yeah. And drawing out that
Ian Kingstone 42:34
information. So very much workshopping workshop visioning, business focused, no technology in there at all. Okay, if you talk about solution, he talks about a solution at the level of, or we could use AI to help us with that, or we could use an AI we don't talk about a brand or what it is, or anything like that
Jonathan Parnaby 42:52
It's capability level, isn't it?
Ian Kingstone 42:53
It is very very high level talk about challenges and opportunities in the business and in the market, find out what would be really transformational or talk about strategy execution and what they've got to do to meet strategy, that type of thing that really gives you an idea for where, you know, there is opportunity for transformation, so to speak, then then I start looking at a bit of a value analysis and solutions to that. And this is all before business case. This is quite high level.
Jonathan Parnaby 43:25
So the front end of your transformation programme. Yeah. Yeah. For going after I need this particular CRM solution. Right. Yeah, it's particularly ERP, See also get right at the front, like aligning hearts and minds?
Ian Kingstone 43:39
Unpack the value? Yeah. start to look at what solutions would help you deliver that value? Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 43:45
Yeah. Discovery, isn't it is?
Ian Kingstone 43:48
It is a more of a diagnostic level, though. It's, maybe it's not a diagnostic, but it's, it is so you know, in visionary strategic there is Yes, yeah, exactly. And then work on your value proposition. Because thats your business case.
Jonathan Parnaby 44:03
Ian Kingstone 44:03
So what's your value proposition? So your value proposition is? Well, what will you know? So we understand what we need to deliver that value, and then you kind of look at the roadmap, how much change? Is there, what the business case look like, you know, the value looks great, but it's going to cost a lot of money to get there. And what's it going to entail? So you're in business case, land delivery capabilities, the roadmap, when would you get what benefits? You know, can you pull this value forward quicker than that? That whole thing? What what are you going to do to get there? So you've gone from very business focused opportunities, and and you know, pain and gain, and you've moved through to Okay, what's that worth value to? Okay, what's it gonna take to get there? Does it stack up? Yeah. What's the value proposition? Does it make sense, but you've aligned people along the way. It's not my values, their values, those stakeholders just wanting that value
Ian Kingstone 44:07
I love that as a change manager, you know, having all that done, before you even think about engaging into a delivery of something, you've already got the stakeholders going, I know what I want to go after. I know what my why is.
Ian Kingstone 45:19
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Always in that situation,
Jonathan Parnaby 45:22
Your not, I know.
Ian Kingstone 45:24
But once you've got that, once you've done that, and you've agreed that and somebody signed off that they want to go and do that, then you're into managing value through the change. So then you're really into that more like benefits management, you then say, Well, okay, you then in, in delivery land if you want, even if it's assessment and design kind of thing of delivery, you're then saying, Okay, so we're after this value, so baseline where we are with it today? What's the gap? And that kind of thing? How am I gonna measure that? Am I measuring the same thing I measure today? Or is it different? You know, can I just watch a KPI and see whether I've hit the value or not, I've even got a KPI in that area, if it's new value, you know, I mean, that kind of KPI. Yeah, exactly. So you start then look at baselining things and managing value through your delivery process. And then of course, you deliver some things, whatever it is, whatever change or transformation needs to happen, you start to deliver those, and you should about that realisation plan of you would expect to see the value in these places, in this way, or these benefits in this way. And so you start to realise and appraise that value, at the same time, if you're not getting the value expected, or you're not doing it right, what have you got to change to get that value? Is that value still available? If not, is rather value that's available, that kind of thing.
Jonathan Parnaby 46:52
And then you kind this, this phrase, and putting value first, is not only it's kind of a multifaceted meaning, isn't it? Because putting value first as in the front of any transformation, so that you actually discover and uncover what that value is in the first place, put context behind it, but also you kind of highlighting putting value first in your decision making. So So should we do it? Right? Absolutely. I mean, course is obvious, right? It's logical, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you use that to drive your decisions, but it's quite scary that often it doesn't happen.
Ian Kingstone 47:25
People could get too, too, too detailed about that. So you could say, well, why this, this isn't going to drive any value this change here, this particular thing? I don't know. But it's an enabler to something that will. And that's why I mean, again, the technical detail of it, I will always produce a value dependency map. Yeah, you know, showing how you what, what you're changing, and how that drives, what values and how you're going to measure it, and how that's linked to either your strategy or your outcomes that you're looking for. So you can see that some things don't drive value on their own. Yeah, but a set of things initiate "a chain" chain, and some things might initiate many chains. So that's why you have that dependency map. And you might start with individual ones across certain areas, or one big one or whatever. But but that's where you see. So you know that you've reached that point, and he may have changed that transition that you might not see the value yet. That's in your realisation plans that you've used those dependency maps to see when you actually realised whatever value you're looking for. So it's not like when you say value first, yes. But you're not going to see value out of everything, in the sense of every change or move or whatever. But you need to see how that enables values. Yeah. Exactly. And so often, when you find out, you're not getting the value, look back down those enablers. And you'll see one's not working right? Do you see what I mean? Or it's not yet there, or it's not in the right place? Or? And this again, comes back to change management, because most of those enablers are people change, process change, that type of stuff that impacts on people. And they want some beliefs. So this is where it all ties in. And again, why would they want if they understand the value, and they understand that we so we get back to value first. So it doesn't matter which way you look at it all intertwined, starts with value. And, and so that's kind of where that kind of saying comes from if you want. But then even when you've done, you've done what you set out to do, say in your programme or whatever your transformation initiative, you should be using that to hunt new value. You've learned so much about that area. If you've transformed something, you're in a place you didn't know before.
Jonathan Parnaby 49:48
Yeah, it's uncharted territory, right.
Ian Kingstone 49:50
So why would you be now looking at what else? What's the next you know, evolution of that value? Yes. And so, so it's that kind of thinking right the way through. And that's why I say, you know, value first leadership as well is, is a theme across that whole piece. Because that's about thinking that way, that mindset in what you do and what do you know what I mean? So make sense. So that's Yeah, I mean, I haven't gone into the detail that we said, how'd you do it, you start off high level, you work into the detail when you're at the right place to work into the detail. And then you manage and monitor that as a discipline of value management discipline, through the transformational life cycle of whatever you're doing. And then you further optimise that it's it's it's that all loop
Jonathan Parnaby 50:47
Ian Kingstone 50:48
Yeah, it's, I'm trying to think of the loop that is a common loop, identify, plan, execute, review and evaluate the results. If you're not getting the results you want. Plan again, execute until you are getting the results you want. Establish potential for further results. Is that all? continuous activity?
Jonathan Parnaby 51:13
Yeah. Great. Great stuff.
Jonathan Parnaby 51:18
So thank you for that. Yeah, that's really good to kind of explore that. And it's a topic we should always be talking about all the time. Because it's so bloody important. So yeah, I think it's time for the pub quiz. Let's get back to our pop quiz. So I've got a question for you this time. And it is a film related one obviously good because "I might do alright" You might do alright, you might do alright. So the question is, how many films have Al Pacino and Robert De Niro appeared in together? So how many have they done together? Two titans of the film industry
Ian Kingstone 51:57
a few actually
Jonathan Parnaby 51:59
How many actually have they done together?
Ian Kingstone 52:01
I could think of
Jonathan Parnaby 52:05
a look to this. I was like, Oh, yeah, yes, that one, this one. So I'm not gonna give you any clues. But yeah, and for your listener, for the listeners out there, think don't cheat and have a thing. I'm not
Ian Kingstone 52:17
sure you want me to have a guess now
Jonathan Parnaby 52:19
You can have a guess if you want. I'm not gonna say if it's right.
Ian Kingstone 52:23
I'm actually gonna go for five. Okay. And I'm not quite name them. So when we get that that is just a kind of a viewpoint. I'm probably terribly low. But I kind of think that I keep thinking of ones that I think you know what? They weren't both in that.
Jonathan Parnaby 52:43
Yeah, I know. You just think they are they? But
Ian Kingstone 52:46
yeah, I might be wrong. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. Are you going five?
Jonathan Parnaby 52:50
You'll find out the right. Time next time. Thanks.
Jonathan Parnaby 52:54
Jonathan Parnaby 53:01
This question time Ian we've got a question from Stewart Ennew. Hello, Stewart. Um, thank you again, for submitting the question. And Ian's already looking nervous.
Ian Kingstone 53:12
I am. Always, in the past has asked me questions that I don't want to answer these questions.
Jonathan Parnaby 53:24
But he's a good friend of the podcast. And yeah, Stewart we'll have t get you on one episode. Oh, yeah. That's good idea. So yeah, so have a little think, Joe. And what what you'd like to come and discuss with us in the beer and butterfly one would happily, happily have you on. So the question that Stewart asks is, how can businesses, de risk losing people who work on exciting projects, i.e., someone who gets drafted onto a programme or project and actually gets a taste of what it's like to work on these things, and either maybe goes into a consulting route, or changes their job altogether to do that kind of job in different companies? So this is got yeah, when I read this one is that this is an interesting take. And I'm not sure I've got all the answers on this one.
Ian Kingstone 54:10
But he and me both actually,
Jonathan Parnaby 54:13
He's referencing himself here. This is this is the interesting
Ian Kingstone 54:16
that I can think of I can think of most people I work with, who started out. And I've done exactly that. Yeah. You know, there's a few that have said that I did probably 20 years of working for end companies, but I did move companies. Not I stayed in the same company. So
Jonathan Parnaby 54:39
my view on this, let me just give me my view, why maybe you can collect your thoughts on it. It comes down to people right at the end of the day, and if the if a person is going to leave the company to work on, you know, let's say they worked in finance, and they were part of a finance transformation programme and got drafted in They became a process lead or whatever, and actually got a little bit of a taste on all this is quite different to what I normally do. And that's why I really like it really like getting involved in the change? Well, you got, I've got a few thoughts on this because the company, you don't want to keep that person then if that person actually wanted to do something different, I know the company is losing somebody, but actually what they're doing is enabling that person to grow. Right and diversify. So, yeah, it's kind of like different trains of thought, because there's the companies, you know, how do they do derisk of losing someone? Well, I think giving them more opportunities to do that kind of work within that company, so that they don't have to go outside into
Ian Kingstone 55:47
that comes down to value, doesn't it? Again, I'm talking value again,
Jonathan Parnaby 55:52
this episode was about value. So
Ian Kingstone 55:54
if you feel valued, see your value value feel valued, you know, valued in that kind of respect. You know, if there's all like you say, there's the right opportunities you feel valued people give you if you want to grow as a person, which is it or a skill set, or kind of that type of thing or experience, you're likely to move somewhere else to get it? Yes,
Jonathan Parnaby 56:18
Ian Kingstone 56:19
Which is, irrespective of whether you worked on transformation programme or not. Do you see what I mean? So if that's the kind of person you are, and I'm not saying that's right, that's not for everybody. Some people don't necessarily quite happy. not growing, I've got to a stage in their career where they don't want to or whatever, you know, which is all fine. But But I think so, couple of things come to mind. And they're not relative to transformation, I guess, their relative to Yeah, if the opportunities like you said, and your value you feel valued in the in the opportunities you've gotten the work that you do, the chances are you won't leave now, if you've run a transfer, if you've been involved in transformation programmes, so the work that you do is only around for that transformation. Yeah, therefore, and then we're going to return about so you're well, I would question though, how many organisations don't continuously transform in some way shape, or they might not be the same type of transform the same size of transformation? But I would question certainly in the bigger organisations, why you wouldn't be transforming regularly. And so therefore, why would you want to lose those skills, you'd be valued and utilise those skills? Even if it was a sideways move, so to speak? In a smaller organisation, chances are you're trying to grow those opportunities are there again. So the only other thing that comes to my mind is other reasons why people leave companies. Yeah, exactly. And not really relevant for this this question, but
Jonathan Parnaby 57:57
But um, but i think that i think that's just dropped into my mind, as I'll say it before I forget it. But he kind of as you taught there, it reminded me I know if it's a quote, or just the general thing I've seen or read somewhere, but it's, you know, the the skills and capabilities to run a company are different to the ones that you need to transform it. Absolutely. So. So the people that kind of get involved in these transformations are obviously acquiring these new skills, hence why they're going oh, this is this is different. This is exciting. But as a company to help the derisk losing people, you hit the nail on the head, for me, is the continuous transformation to improve, get enough of that value, as we talked about earlier in the episode, but who you're going to need to help you get there are the people that have acquired all those skills, right? Surely
Ian Kingstone 58:44
I don't get this I mean, change managers a good example. Right? Yeah, I think, you know, most organisations I've helped do transformation didn't have change managers hanging around. Yeah. And you've ended up bringing someone in to do change management even as a permanent role, not necessarily a permanent role. Whereas I think, one of the biggest advantages of a change management manager if they're a permanent role within that organisation, that's not the "invested" Not yet Not, not their roles, not decided by how many projects are going on at the moment. But you telling me that there's not certainly in these larger organisations, the kinds of you and I've worked in a FTSE, 250 FTSE 100 type size organisations, that they shouldn't be changed manual Change Management Group. Yeah. And in that organisation, because there's enough change going on always. Very true, you know, so so I still find that absolutely amazing. But then, you know, just the same reason as somebody who's running a department might move from one company to another, for more money or for this or for that. I think you can find the same reasons. Again,
Jonathan Parnaby 59:55
a lot of factors.
Ian Kingstone 59:57
Yeah, a lot of people go and do consulting because They can get paid more money. And, you know, whether that's true or not. I mean, we could debate. But But alas, no, no, no. And these are the freedoms isn't there that then people want you know. And, you know, I've moved into consulting back out into organisations, I've gone from permanent roles to kind of contract roles to kind of my own company back into permanent role. You know, I've done that because of the motivations of the work.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:00:33
Yeah, that's different isn't
Ian Kingstone 1:00:35
Yeah. drives you. Yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 1:00:38
exactly. Work is the variety of what you're doing and the fulfilment of what you're doing. And different motivating factors.
Ian Kingstone 1:00:46
Yeah, my grandfather worked for Bootsyou did as well, but my grandfather worked for all his life. Yeah, that's, uh, you don't see much of that these days. And some people will go through two or three career changes in a, you know, a lifetime. So. So I don't, I don't know whether it's a wrong thing. And I don't think that was Stewarts question to be honest.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:01:12
We've probably got off the tangent we have,
Ian Kingstone 1:01:14
but how do you keep people well? Do you need to keep people to see the question? And by people moving around and bringing in other people when you do need them? Is that is that perhaps bringing in different experience and diversity? And, you know, we could debate this for a long while, so I don't have a perfect answer for it.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:01:35
No, I don't either. I think, you know, hopefully Stewart what we've kind of debated or talked about, kind of gives gives you a bit of a sense of where our heads are at but it depends. So I think that is the answer. It just depends, doesn't it? Which is, you know, standard answer from us. But anyway, we're wrapping up there. And thank you, everybody who's listened today. And yeah, helps us put value first on the map again. And yeah, we look forward to catching back with everyone next time. So
Ian Kingstone 1:02:10
yeah, thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks, everyone.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:02:12
Bye. If you want to record a question for next time, just you know, just record that question. Send it to our firstname.lastname@example.org because we love to get people's voices on this podcast, right Ian.
Ian Kingstone 1:02:25
Yeah, no, it's great. Sounds good.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:02:27
Great. Alright, see you next time.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:02:30
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the Beer and Butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation.
Ian Kingstone 1:02:36
You can get more details of the episodes on our website, which is www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk. That's www.beerandbutterfly.co.uk
Jonathan Parnaby 1:02:49
You can get in touch with the show by emailing us on email@example.com, send us your questions written or recorded. Or come and join us at the table as a guest.
Ian Kingstone 1:03:00
Also check out our LinkedIn page, Beer & Butterfly Podcast and on Twitter @butterfly_beer, where you can engage with the show directly and get involved.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:03:13
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.