The third seat is filled again as our hosts are joined by a very special guest "Patricia Morris" to talk all about scaling up small & medium sized businesses. The trio catch-up as and discuss Trish's glorious week away and JP's misfortune to cancel a camping trip as the weather turned. Trish takes the lead in the episode to bring to life what change means for SME's (called Scale Ups) and ensuring that terminology we use as consultants needs to be right.
Ian Kingstone 0:00
Well what you having then Jonathan,
Jonathan Parnaby 0:05
A pint please mate
Jonathan Parnaby 0:06
Two pints please lan
Jonathan Parnaby 0:08
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting
Ian Kingstone 0:10
there over there? sat at that table over there?
Jonathan Parnaby 0:13
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,
Ian Kingstone 0:18
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:23
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there who have we got
Ian Kingstone 0:27
some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.
Jonathan Parnaby 0:33
Cool, fantastic. Well, let's crack on lets get over there
Ian Kingstone 0:35
Welcome to the Beer & Butterfly
Jonathan Parnaby 0:37
A podcast where we talk transformation.
Ian Kingstone 1:03
I'm Ian Kingstone.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:05
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.
Ian Kingstone 1:06
And we're your hosts.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:08
In today's episode, we talk about what change can look like for small or medium business.
Ian Kingstone 1:13
Well, here we are again, then again, again, yeah, we're back. But today, we've got another guest.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:20
We have this is an exciting time. We've got another guest.
Ian Kingstone 1:25
So who is it?
Jonathan Parnaby 1:26
Who is it? Who have we got.
Ian Kingstone 1:28
Trish Say hello.
Trish Morris 1:29
Jonathan Parnaby 1:33
How are you?
Trish Morris 1:35
I'm good. Thank you, Jonathan. How are you?
Jonathan Parnaby 1:37
Yeah, I'm good. Thanks. It's great to see you again. Trish. Like for our listeners. We've known Trish for how long we known each other for
Trish Morris 1:47
a long time. Good few years now.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:49
Yeah, good few years and we used work together? Didn't we us three so we know each other quite well through thick and thin.
Trish Morris 1:59
Some chuckling on this one, don't you?
Ian Kingstone 2:01
A lot of reminiscing that will be definitely
Ian Kingstone 2:06
We've got to be careful what we say
Jonathan Parnaby 2:07
We don't want to incriminate him. That's
Ian Kingstone 2:11
no, no, no, no.
Jonathan Parnaby 2:15
Welcome Trish to the Beer & Butterfly, our virtual pub. And you're always welcome. It's just great to have you here. So anyway, let's introduce you properly, if you tell our listeners who you are, what you're doing here, and what we're going to talk about today.
Trish Morris 2:30
Hello, I'm Trisha, Trisha Morris. And, as we've said, I've worked with Ian and Jonathan, many years ago, in the change arena. After I left the company that we were working together, I moved to another large organisation for a time and then left there, and went to work with a number of SMEs on a contract basis and just sharing some of my expertise. Hence the reason that we're here today to talk about this particular topic. And I'm now working for a micro company in which is chemical engineering.
Jonathan Parnaby 3:16
Oh, yeah, that's that what;'s that industry like that is quite an interesting kind of area to be in. Right.
Trish Morris 3:22
It is. It's really interesting. And I'm learning lots and lots of things, which I absolutely love. And have a finger in many pies. As you know, I absolutely love
Jonathan Parnaby 3:35
Yeah, it's quite nice though. I think when they you know, when you get into a business thats small, and you can can diversify the role that you're doing in that business. And you just get involved in everything. It's kind of like startup mentalities. And I love that.
Ian Kingstone 3:50
I also think, learning you said, you mentioned, you know, your learning loads, I think learning through work, I don't know, motivates the hell out of me, I just really enjoy to be learning new things, try new things. Or, you know, I mean, people often brings that because there's always some different people or whatever, that may be a different area as well in different industry. And that's kind of why I like consulting, because you end up learning new companies new things. Great. Yeah,
Trish Morris 4:19
it's not only learned about the new products of the company that I work for, and and they, they're their technology, which is totally different to digital technology, which I was involved with for a long time. And because this is actually chemical reactors that we sell and so that's the, there's that but I've also got involved in a lot more of the people side, which I suppose knowing me as you to do, it's no surprise. They were getting involved in a lot of the recruiting and a little bit of the, the trade shows and things like that. That's all Last time, so it's all new and different. This bit of boring admin as well, but I can cope with that. Yeah. So it's really you know, I really enjoyed it.
Jonathan Parnaby 5:10
Sometimes I like just doing a bit of admin. And and you know, and it's kind of like easy and you can just lock yourself away in your brain you like to go into your mind palace of just like, just just doing something like a simple task. Yes, go right. That's fine. I'm good for this for a couple of hours sometimes you just need that.
Trish Morris 5:29
I'm not gonna say it was simple. But I did month end that well, I started prepping month then today.
Jonathan Parnaby 5:36
I want to my own month end and my business is probably the one of the most simple businesses out there. Right. And I hate doing it. But but there we go. Cool. Well, it's great to have you I think we've got a really good topic. And we're gonna get into and it's probably a topic we don't talk about enough. And, yes, I'm really up for getting into it. But first, we've got to answer our pop quiz question that we asked last week. So. So Trish, you don't obviously know what this question is yet, but so feel free to chip in with the answer if you know it. It's a film related one because again, it's me & Ian we love films. So the question was how many films of Al Pacino and Robert De Niro appeared in together the two titans of the film industry? How many films have they appeared in together? So what do you reckon?
Trish Morris 6:24
Huh? Five, five, okay. What do you reckon Ian I can't remember what you said, what did you say
Ian Kingstone 6:31
I thought it was gonna be a lower number I can't remember what I said but I thought it was going to be though cuz he I think he I think you think that there's loads of films but actually when you try and think about it yeah, I'd probably said about five action as
Jonathan Parnaby 6:46
well the you know, the the answer that I've gotten a lot if anyone out there are film buffs and they say No, you're wrong. Yeah, I'll give you the source. And we can tell them but the answer is 4. Pretty close right is the films are the Godfather Part Two. Okay, yeah. Heat obviously. Yeah, this is the one that most people know Righteous Kill which I completely as a film forgot about even existed and The Irishman which is a fairly recent one.
Ian Kingstone 7:19
Yeah. Scorsese one
Jonathan Parnaby 7:21
so yeah, 4 in my head I thought is more
Ian Kingstone 7:24
Yeah. That's what I thought the trick was going to be because I thought should be more but Hey,
Jonathan Parnaby 7:31
there you go. You've learned a little bit more about Al Pacino and Robert De Niro in this podcast, because why not? That's why you're here. Right. All right. Let's move on. So what have you been up to you. So I want to go to you Trish first because I know that you went away. Because you're on holiday because we're going to record this last week when we moved it because you're on holiday. So I'm just keen to see how you got on.
Trish Morris 7:56
It was brilliant. We had two half days of rain. Jonathan, is that it? We went Thursday to Thursday. All the way down. It rained, we got to the Cornwall border. And the other half said shall I drive now? I know when do we really want to swap over he's talking it down and then the next minute it stops I went right okay, you can drive. So we swapped over brilliant sunshine. And then we had literally two half days of rain. I even got sunburned on the last day on the Thursday coming home absolutely threw it down on a gust of wind and I think actually a certain person who's here in this in this bar with me was going on a camping holiday if I remember rightly
Jonathan Parnaby 8:45
I say the word was because that was the plan i even said last episode I sat down looking forward to going camping you know we'll go over with our friends who are not big kind of campers they don't they bought a tent before now we're gonna go and give it a go. And so I'm really excited to go away and then yeah, I literally got an email from the campsite. So this is in Looe or near Looe Cornwall and they said oh we got a weather warning for wind and all awnings have been ripped off caravans and been destroyed so do you want to come we'll move it so I didn't actually get my my camping weekend Trish, but it's fine we did other things but no like so how was it what do you get up to visit quite outdoors you know it's going to be outdoors a
Trish Morris 9:33
Yeah, we did bikes so a couple of bike rides a lot of coastal path walking. Yeah, cuz we were in a caravan it was right on the sand dunes so you straight out straight onto the coastal path. We're in a 4 miles outside of Padstow a Treyarnon Bar around that area. We don't know if you know it, though. It's lovely. So, there's night Mother Iveys Bay is really nice secluded spot. And we've even walked there when it was sort of like raining and it's been quiet. Although there was one funny thing that happened. And we will we went for it was forecast thunderstorms one particular morning. So we said right well not go out on the bites, we'll wait and see whether these thunderstorms happen or not. We'll go for a walk. So we walked in Mother Iveys bag, which is only like, about two miles away. And we're on the beach. And we're the only people that's on the beach. And the other half says, oh, let's just scramble it. Let's just scramble over these rocks and get to the other part of the beach. And I said no, the tides coming in? And he said, No, it's not. And I said yes, it is. And as I said, Yes it is. I was stood in the sea. And he'd already got on the rock. So he was dry.
Jonathan Parnaby 10:53
So you weren't best impressed them, I don't you hate it when your right
Trish Morris 11:09
you right it is coming in. Anyway, you did get down off the rocks and we walk back the way that we come from a two mile walk back with squelching trainers and some
Ian Kingstone 11:20
Jonathan Parnaby 11:21
Yeah, I love coastal path walk and I say is just when you get like that the weather on your side. There's the views that are stunning. Yeah, yeah. Love it. Love it. Cool. Oh, cool. What about you Ian
Ian Kingstone 11:35
I got wet the weekend. I went into the surf lesson. So that's The Wave. Yeah, right. From the second lesson, and quite pleased with my performance. I can. I could say I can surf or I can get the did you stand up. Yeah, pretty much every time. Nice. I pretty early in a straight line. Nothing too spectacular. No, but now. Yeah. So I booked another one for next month. Because I'm, I'm on I'm on a I'm on a roll now. And and I actually didn't have any backache or anything afterwards.
Jonathan Parnaby 12:18
So that's when you know you're winning. When you stop aching
Ian Kingstone 12:21
Yeah. So So Dan, that is probably about the main thing, by anatomy bike about been to a pub in in a pub. In a pub. Nice. You know, so that was quite interesting and sad in it when we're talking about things.
Jonathan Parnaby 12:34
It's not though it's quite, it's quite an important thing. I think it's like it's just a little bit of normality creeping back into lives. And going to the purpose just sort of thinks that right that we should all have a not just the virtual one might have the one we're in
Ian Kingstone 12:48
like a real, it was quite nice. It was a quiet village pub. It wasn't too busy. Actually, it was quite nice. But I thought was going to be busier because, you know, things have just opened up and stuff and you're now allowed to do it. But But now it's really good. And it was just nice to sit and talk some people that, you know, I've gone for walks with or whatever, but just sit down and have a sit in a pub and have a drink so so that that was really good fun. And only other thing I've got to mention is squirrels. I've still got problems with squirrels coming down the chimney. I've spent you know, many a time now putting a humane cage into the chimney to catch a square or to let it out only for a few days later it comes back down.
Jonathan Parnaby 13:32
Yeah, they they're like homing pigeons.
Ian Kingstone 13:34
Yeah, they're gonna have me chimneys tops covered with something just
Jonathan Parnaby 13:40
take the squirrels that Scotland or something so far away, they can't come back and add to
Ian Kingstone 13:45
do that I've got so yeah, they go. That's not much else really no films. nothing to write home about. Okay.
Jonathan Parnaby 13:55
Now the only thing I'd like say I didn't go camping. So we had very disappointed children, because they were waiting for you know, after school. And to kind of go and they were like, you're sorry, we're not going so they were very sad. But we took him to the Mendip Activity Centre. Which I never even knew this place existed. Yeah, but we took him and did frisbee golf. Which is I've never done it before. It's just a bit of a laugh. And yeah, they all loved it. There's such great value. We literally got
Ian Kingstone 14:28
to do that. They did climbing they they obviously skiing snowboarding. You name it. It's brilliant. Yeah, it's hidden away as well, that you wouldn't necessarily know it's there. Which is kind of bizarre.
Jonathan Parnaby 14:44
So many times that are impasto. No, there we go. So that was my weekend. No films for me really. So yeah, no, I said no films review. He started reviewing last last week. He we don't normally review films, but he just started doing yet. But anyway, let's crack on, shall we? So Trish, what we're going to talk about today,
Trish Morris 15:07
We're going to talk about change within small organisations, or, as most people in small organisations call it, scale up
Jonathan Parnaby 15:16
scale ups. Interesting. So what, what, what specifically we're going to cover then?
Trish Morris 15:25
So? Well, it's very similar. I've been working with them a few small organisations now. And they face very similar problems to the ones that you face within large organisations, which is normally my, what kind of IT do we need? or digital equipment? And what how are we going to what's our existing processes? How are we going to what changes do we need to make to our existing processes? as we expand and take on new employees? How does your organisation look? how's it gonna work? How do we stay competitive with our, with our customers and against our compete against other competitors, and it's the normal thing that you would find within a large organisation. But they don't tend to use the same terminology. It's just, we've got a problem. And often it's the it can be that the owners or the leadership team within the organisation sort of know this problem. But they don't know how to go about resolving it. So yeah, and it's and it's often the, the driver for that change, or scale up is actually result of the fact of growth. And that's normally the growth of bringing in new people. And they realising that processes are falling apart. And often those changes are led by the people who's responsible for Recruitment and HR. And that's not necessarily even the HR, it's not necessarily their full time role. It's just another role, which is part of their day job.
Jonathan Parnaby 17:17
Yeah, it's a hat that people were, it's interesting, because like, last week, we were talking about putting value first. And and then I kind of in that conversation, we kind of talked about, you know, the skills that you you need to run a business are very, very different skills, you need to transform it or scale it or do the change in it. So it's that kind of thing isn't it is, yeah, people, people know how to run their businesses, they kind of know what they need to do, because they built them, but when they actually want to grow them, and they say, scale them up, quite an alien concept, like, Well, where do you start? And yeah,
Trish Morris 17:56
but if you think about it, and I'm I'm generalising here, and perhaps slightly pigeonholing people, but the main areas where people who are have started a small business startup, they've either come from an R&D background, a sales background, or a like been a director of a another company, like a general manager type. And that's got a totally different innovation innovative idea. And gone totally off piste to what they used to do before. What you won't get somebody that's got a a change background, so to speak. Yeah.
Jonathan Parnaby 18:51
Yeah. Now that makes sense. I mean, let's pick on that that jargon conversation. That's quite a key one and I'm gonna put my my hands up here I'm guilty of it. I'm completely guilty of, of leaning in to jargon and stuff because I think when you work in the corporate world, it's it's there. He just he just kind of permutate your skin any any kind of you just get used to saying these things. But actually, we need to be mindful as people and this goes from all walks of life, right? But we need to be mindful of how we come across to people when we're trying to explain things because there's something to be said about let's just try and keep this simple. I just remember the conversation we had Trish where we used to work together and you and you we're trying to explain, i can't remember who it was
Trish Morris 19:40
Jonathan Parnaby 19:41
your dad? Yeah, but you're trying to explain to your dad what you did. Yeah. As as a job. And it's just something that should be really simple. And, and yeah, we just tie yourself in knots. So yeah, tell us about that story. Yeah, it's a good way of bringing it to life.
Trish Morris 19:58
So dad once said to me Treesh, which is what he calls me, what exactly do you do? So I spent 20 minutes what I did for a job. And he looked at me. And then my dad I said, so you modernise businesses, then you helped to modernise businesses? Yes Dad. Actually, Jonathan, if you notice, and every time Boris Johnson talks about transformation have anything to do with the government now, he talks about modernization.
Jonathan Parnaby 20:39
Hmm, yeah, he does. Yeah. He's copying my dad. But it's a good it's a good point, though. He's like we do I'm guilty of it. Like you did it. I'm sure Ian you do it. We can speak for hours about things and around the houses, but really, your dad's right. What do we do?
Trish Morris 20:58
Yeah, modernise. Its modernise it, yeah, is scaling up. It's modernising it, it's going to the next step. It's the, it's evolving the next phase of your company, your journey that you're going on? that's in there. And, you know, it's like, there's a lot of things out there a lot of courses for small businesses, and they call them scale up boot camps.
Jonathan Parnaby 21:24
Trish Morris 21:25
And there's a, it's normally, two half days a week, over six weeks, a lot of they, the local government run them for those particular areas, that business centres, where they help small companies to actually the very small level some of the skills that they need to have, in order to scale up in order to grow the business, what they need to start thinking of, some of those things are, you know, Finance? dependent upon who they are? They haven't they've never done and a five year forecast, you know, they don't know what that they don't look to the future. succession planning. Yeah. That, you know, though, those kind of things, which is all part of transforming how you're going to do that, what skills are you going to need for the future? Where's that? Where's the business going? What are my competitors doing? And what how well, are my products selling? And, you know, something that I know what's what's teaching them how to do a business case, because a lot of the small companies as well, part of it is going out for funding and go into the investor angels, and, you know, they, or to banks, or whatever in order to, to grow. But you have to have done a lot of this work beforehand, in order to go and say, yeah, you know, this is my vision, this is what we're going to do. This is where I'm going to take the company. And these are the plans that I've got in place. This is all the work that I've done beforehand to do it. And it's all part it's everything that we the three of us have done for years, whilst working in change. That, you know, looking at what is my AS IS? What is my TO BE? What's my business case? What's my benefits? Yeah. Am I realising my benefits?
Ian Kingstone 23:28
So, so we tend to call these things? Yeah, we've got loads of terminology for this we've been using over the years, right? target operating models, benefit cases, you know, investment appraisals, all this stuff, we stick in, in, you know, where we've got umpteen management disciplines to change an organisation change management, value management, you know, project management, programme management, you know, and what I think what you're saying is that, yeah, that's called scale up. Yes. And it's all this terminology would probably was just the wrong terminology for for a smaller growing business.
Jonathan Parnaby 24:07
Yeah. alienation a little bit though, right?
Trish Morris 24:11
Yeah, they're doing exactly the same stuff. But but at a smaller level, and even down to when we're actually implementing the changes. And we talk about service readiness. Yeah, you know, what, what is exactly the same thing they need to? You need to know, do my do the people who's working for me? Do they understand what it is that they need to do? You know, we talk about, you know, like on the governance side, so a lot of them trying to understand what a risk register is.
Jonathan Parnaby 24:54
Ian Kingstone 24:57
It is a minefield, I remember and I started out just in project management, never mind, you know? And and, you know, is all these terms, all these things? All? It does seem like when if you speak to someone, like I don't know, one of us, yeah, in our consulting way, in big companies, if you want, it must be a complete is like we're talking a completely foreign language.
Trish Morris 25:41
And it puts people off. And, and I, I found that, because I've been on one of these scale courses and with a group of people, and I ended up sort of helping a lot of them out. And I was explaining to them some of you know, saying, but in a corporate world who would use that, because that's the other thing, a lot of people haven't come from necessarily from a corporate background. So they've not heard that, you know, some of the people that were on that course, me it was a family run business, which had been handed down. And they've done extremely well. You know, and grow to several businesses, but then come to that point, but it was total alien language, even some of the language that we were talking about in the course was totally alien to them. And you have, so it's, it's an I guess, it's, as, you know, understanding the people that you work with, and their own and what their knowledge base is that you're starting with, and then saying to them, okay, so it's, it's instead of saying a risk, it's, I said to them, the what are the potential problems that you think we might run into? Yeah, whilst we're doing this
Jonathan Parnaby 26:56
reframing it is yeah, so he kind of said, You're like, I get what that is, because I think about those time, because why wouldn't I own the business?
Trish Morris 27:05
So do we not need to list them? And then say, and then work out whether what the probability is of it actually happening? And if do we need to worry about it?
Jonathan Parnaby 27:15
Yeah. Yeah, and look these, these businesses are out there. Like, you know, these kind of, I suppose, like family run businesses have been handed down and handed down and are successful is this bloody brilliant. I just think, you know, the whole UK economy is built on businesses like this. Right? And, and yeah, we shouldn't be shocked or surprised to think that of course, they don't know what all this stuff is. Because it's alien, it's like me talking to my wife about midwifery. She's talking about a different language, and I have no idea what you're talking about. So she has to kind of translate it to me. And it's just the same principle. It's just you can't expect everybody to have had that level of exposure and experience in, you know, your scale up, change, and having done it multiple times, and have the scars from it, and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I mean, it sounds obvious when you say out loud Trish, isn't it, but it's
Trish Morris 28:12
Yeah, but it's not. And I think that the people like us that's worked in the business for a long time. Often, though, they may be, you know, they might go they might, they might go freelancing, they might go and help those companies, and I guess this podcast is a little bit about to help them as well, in just how you go, we've got to approach it much more softly than you would do. If you were going into for a contract role within a larger organisation. You know, one of the other things that I'm thinking about is, is as well, with an organisation change, there's normally the follow through of that is a cultural change, when an SME is won't necessarily think it's a cultural change, they don't actually necessarily think about culture, the culture of the company, and having having got one, the look at you with a blank expression, when you say, the culture of the company. Well, it's just the company we all get on. As they, as the company grows. There's normally a change of culture that goes with it. And a lot of these companies haven't actually thought about, what is what you have to do to transform to change that culture. And they think of Yeah, I'll just put a new organisation chart in and it'll sort itself out. Well, it doesn't. And you have to think about what is talk talking about a company vision, and mission statements. And this is when when you've got a group of people who are an SME, their eyes start to glaze over. Yeah. And they think, yeah,
Ian Kingstone 29:55
yeah, I can imagine just standing there saying, Well, yeah, so Yeah, how you gonna transition these people, these new skills or these new people into your organisation? And just by me saying transition or whatever, we just employ them, right? And there's probably no, wait a minute, then you're going to change people's roles, because so and so does that normally. And now you're kind of, and where people have perhaps had the idea, all these different things type roles. In fact, we started talking about that earlier. Suddenly, now, yeah, you've got more people, you start to put them in some kind of more structured process, and, and that person is responsible for that role. And that person is responsible for that role as you grow, which in itself changes the culture in itself is, it is well, some say just gets on does that I don't need to put a role description down for it, to see what I mean. And then all of a sudden, you've now got put some stretch, because you've got different people, or more people. And you've got to have some kind of management, some kind of probably HR. Yeah, you know.
Trish Morris 30:54
And then it's, it's the, getting them into documenting the processes. Because if you go walk into most SMEs, and you ask them, can I see your process? No, we haven't got a documented
Jonathan Parnaby 31:09
sorry but let's face it, we walk into most corporate businesses and ask for their AS IS processes. They will say, No, it's in my head.
Ian Kingstone 31:20
We wrote down. Yeah, we spent two to six months ago mapped out all of these processes. But loads of things have changed, and nobody's kept them up to date. So we have no idea whether they're right or wrong, and they useless.
Trish Morris 31:31
Yeah, exactly. Well, so you've got that on a smaller scale as well, when you when you go in and just go, Well, I only say so. Oh, and I okay, but what happens if you're not here, but I'm never, I'm never not here. I work 365 days a year. And I'm always here. Okay, so what happened? And I like to say to them, so what happens if you if you have an accident? Yeah, how is the business going to carry on? And, and, you know, so so it's those kind of things is, you have to really, because most of the people who have asked you to go in and make those changes, don't actually think as well, that it's actually down to them to drive those changes, they haven't got the ownership of it, it's, well, I don't need to change, you just need to come in. And you just need to solve these problems, because I've got Barbera in accounts, so in a toys out of the pram now, because she, she's got less of a job to do, because I've brought somebody else in, and she only wants to do the the the credit control side doesn't want to do a no. And I've given the sales side to somebody else. And and this is what, why you have to have those conversations with people, which is exactly what we did, you know, change impacts, changing.
Ian Kingstone 32:59
Go into a conversation and whose roles again? Yeah, but that's all corporate stuff, right? It all bigger company type stuff. Yeah, and I suppose there's no Kind of, yeah.
Trish Morris 33:12
But you still have to have those conversations with the people and say, we're gonna, you know, these changes are coming, we're going to implement implement them. And this is how it's actually going to affect your role. And it might only be slightly, but there will be an impact. And it was, you know, the same with COVID, in the fact that when COVID came along, and people had to work from home, most small, whereas in a, you know, a corporate, we're used to, well, certainly my background, I was I was used to having colleagues in America, New Zealand, all over the place that I would just see myself as being part of a team, because I used to see them on a video conference or whatever, probably never met them in my life only over screen time. But I thought of them, because they were part of the team. I knew they were there, we used to go and ask them for information. So I was used to working that way. But a lot of particularly small the SMEs found it really difficult to working from home, because there wasn't sat in in an office five days a week with their own colleagues. And, and they were they were working remotely let alone You know, thinking about colleagues that were outside of the normal office area. And so, you know, that was a that was some of the other changes that we you know, we talked about and and how people overcome them and what what processes you put into place to actually to help those people to to to become so that they do communicate so that they do feel still part of a team and they do remember to involve everyone
Ian Kingstone 35:01
Yeah, yeah, cuz you used to just walking through, even if it's just, you know, I walk over to sounds and we'll have a chat about something. And internally not thinking, well, I've got a, schedule a call with them
Jonathan Parnaby 35:14
or, you know book a meeting,
Ian Kingstone 35:17
yeah, or Yeah. And then you work out the use of technology. And even when you've worked out of use technology, and even if you're quite good at using the technology, it's still a completely different way of doing things. I mean, I can imagine that some people have a certain way they might go to people, if they've got to perhaps deal with a difficult subject, you know, they might do something in on a personal point of way that helps that conversation, then all of a sudden, you've got to do it online. And then we're kind of, I suppose I'm kind of practised after working for probably at least 15 years, with videoconferencing and things like that, or, you know, where you kind of know how to kind of go about it. And all of a sudden, bang, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Jonathan Parnaby 36:06
so some people, it's terrifying, I think, to kind of go from your comfort zone of being in an office with people knowing I can talk to anyone get my work done, to suddenly now I'm isolated. And I'm having to learn to communicate through this this way that I've never done before. And I just find it awkward. So I'm going to turn the video off. Yeah, and end up with the video feed. Because then it's like a phone call, then we see you're missing elements of body language in in, in that conversation. And it
Trish Morris 36:36
is a little bit like, if you remember the time when we all work together. And, and I went on my roadshow with my colleague and trusted friend. And we did so people with a sand pit. And I know I'm sorry, I think talking terminology here now, which was basically, the can't do it, you know, here's a trial of it, you can't break it, just have a play with it till you feel comfortable. And you know, what you're doing. And, you know, and there's that is really, really important in in an SME is to give people that opportunity to play with any new technology or to work through be part of that process that you're designing, get them involved so that they feel that they've got input, and they've had a voice, they've actually they've they've, they've said, Well, we can't do that, because of x, or you can't because of Y it's not forced on them. You know, because it is, within a larger organisation, there's too many people to involve everyone in a smaller organisation you can.
Jonathan Parnaby 37:54
That's true, that's a benefit is there's a massive benefit to my change manager hat on the fact that you can get around the entire business and speak to everyone on a one to one basis is huge, what an advantage to have to be agile with that change and scaling up because this is what a lot of corporate and large businesses struggle with is, it's they're so vast and actually just having the conversations and making people aware is is a lot of work. A lot of planning, and not everyone gets it on the first go. And yeah, so as an SME, this is where you've got an edge.
Trish Morris 38:30
Yeah, yes. Yeah. So so long as you don't bring somebody in your project manager, to just project manage the whole thing for you and not involve anybody else. Just design it. Just design all your new processes, and shove them in a say that's how you're going to work. Yeah. So, so long as you bring somebody in that's going to go in and talk to people get them on their side. Find out how do you currently work now what works? Well, what doesn't work? Well, what would you like to see? What would you like to change? Can you help me design the process? Yeah, that's a winner. And that that is a real benefit in an SMS that you don't get in a corporate and that's why you're less likely to have what you your end result. To fail to not to not work. And you can also do things much more quickly.
Jonathan Parnaby 39:26
Yeah, yeah. I think trust plays a massive part though. Going back to that, that kind of conversation is you just said like bringing in a project manager who's just gonna kind of run and do what they need to do and not involve people we be kinda need somebody who can empathise with the people in the company who feel so that people feel valued. Again, this is a relationship building. That's what it is, is building the relationship with people. So they go, okay, you're talking my language. You're not alienating you with Lori's framework for this and if framework for that. So this is what we're gonna do, you know, Jesus Go away. And it's talking the right language and building relationships that actually get people involved,
Ian Kingstone 40:08
you still need that, I would have thought you still need that. And you mentioned it earlier Trish about the leadership, if you want, I call it leadership, the owner or whatever, the company, if you do bring someone in to help they need to, they need they still need to explain the vision or the need or the risk or the or, you know, why the value of why the organisation needs to change and grow? Otherwise, I can imagine quite quickly, you would have people saying, well, who are they? They don't even know. Yeah, they tell us how to do this. Now we see this in big organisations. Right. Yeah. So you know, you get project new project managers come along, and and always doing, do not I mean, kind of, and, and you'll get that kind of everywhere, everywhere. Yeah. But we spend a lot of time on cube comms and change management in these big, big programmes. But it's the same needs to surely happen, from the owner of the company needs to say to the, whether it's 510 staff, you know, we need to change for these reasons. Yeah. And I guess the challenges for them is also they probably not had to do that before. And it's probably, how do they How do they do that? With their staff, whereas when a big organisation, we've got a load of management principles and practices to come in and apply? Yeah, and I think you've talked about that earlier. I think that's probably, yeah, so we come in with our terminology, and it just needs to be, it's just simply trying to explain that the activities that need to happen to me as successful,
Jonathan Parnaby 41:49
I think, if you're a consultant, or a contractor, or whatever, that's come into a small medium enterprise, and is there to help them, I think it's just been clear to the owner, or to the person running the business that, you know, I'm here to help you. And on the book, in order to help you, I'm going to need you to help me do these things, and should explain why in simple terms and not go again, because I built this framework, and we gotta do it, because the framework tells me to do it. No, it's meant to do it. And this is the reason why it's the benefit. Because I've seen so conscious,
Trish Morris 42:21
yeah, no, I was just gonna say, when you if you're going into help and support, what you have to do is, is have that consultation, first off with the owner, and say, before I come in, to do this, you have to really support me, and this is what I expect you have to do, I will help you. And I will give you, you know, to get the message across. But the message has got to come from you. Not from me.
Jonathan Parnaby 42:53
Yeah. So important, because I just remember now, you know, working with acquisitions, right? So, we've had a company has bought a smaller company, you know, quite a small medium enterprise company. And they've retained the, the old kind of managing director of that company, but when it's been acquired, and, and again, I was having this conversation directly with him saying, I need your help. And he's like, well, you don't need you don't need my help. Because, yeah, because we've been acquired and you know, we're just gonna get on with it. But no, no, no, we need your help. Because they're gonna look to you know, you're gonna everybody in this company is gonna look to you to kind of say, this is why it's sure to be doing this. And, you know, the, the power that that individual has, and helping with the change and scale of is so important. Okay, kill it, like a killer change, right there. And then if you don't get that person on board,
Trish Morris 43:53
and part of it is is is as there's a thought, a school of thought, and in some of the SMEs, that while I'm paying you to do this, so I shouldn't have to do it. So you have to get over that barrier. Yeah. And say, Well, no, wait, it, this is the benefit of, you know, if I, if I try and impose it onto your employees, they're not going to want to do it. But if you explain to them that, you know, it's to help the company grow, it's to give them more opportunities, it's to give them more opportunities to grow within the organisation, possibly for them to, you know, go up the career ladder, or job opportunities for them new openings, then, yes,
Ian Kingstone 44:50
they'll do so. Yeah. Because you're doing what we would do. You're giving them the value case. Yeah, you're giving them the value to them isn't about necessarily revenue or costs. But you're giving them the value for the reason to change. And then they've got the, you know, some rationale for that change. It's quite interesting in it, because all is all the same things you get in large organisations. I mean, I don't know how many large organisations have gone into where they think they just put technology in, and everything will be alright. You know, and, you know, in your thinking, and how many years of what, you know, you know, is is way more than that. And you'll hear people say it, but then doing it is a different thing. And I'm sure you see that in a in a smaller organisation. So you might spend a while explaining, you need to help do these things, I need you to do these things, and why. But still, it's not maybe second nature for them to do those things. It's now you know, so but then they might be before they might have been telling people to do something, and now that they're trying to persuade someone to do something very different.
Trish Morris 45:53
And that's it different. And that's what we found, when we were on there. The scale up course was, it was interesting for me to see that the penny dropped, so to speak, as it were talking to people the difference between Well, at the moment, I I almost instruct, I just tell my team, the few people I've got with me what they do to that transition to? Well, actually, no, I've got to coach them and mentor them and, and bring them with me. And you could see it slowly dawning on them, that it was a completely different change of mindset that they have a different scale.
Ian Kingstone 46:41
Yeah. Management. Yeah. What's the difference between management and leadership? Right. And, you know, and we've set it up lots of times, then we keep saying it, different set of skills to change something then to troubleshoot something. And I think that's different between management and leadership in anything to know what I mean. And some people can do both really well, some people can do one or the other, really, but
Trish Morris 47:05
some, you know, and it's at that point that you have to say, well, you have to make a decision. Do you actually want to grow your business? Or do you want to keep it at the level it's at? Because if you don't want to take on that response, extra responsibility? of leadership? Yeah, it's not gonna work. Yeah, it's not gonna work. Or you need to bring somebody in to do the leadership for you.
Jonathan Parnaby 47:36
Ian Kingstone 47:37
Yeah. And that that, in itself, then is bringing someone in to do something that you've normally been looked at? to do but in a different way, if that makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. So So. Yeah. And that can be quite. And I guess, I guess there's probably many a small business owner, that's a bit of a control freak. And, and we all are at times I'm sure that that that ad. Yeah, exactly. And then all sudden, you kind of let in all these more people than you can control, so to speak. And suddenly you're having to, to think like bigger let go of it. Yeah, exactly.
Trish Morris 48:19
Because if you look at it, and just going back to that when everyone had to work from home, that was not the the most of the kickback on that. Were SMEs. And they because they still believe that if I haven't got my employees on site, and in front of me, then the sky ring at home.
Jonathan Parnaby 48:42
Okay, interesting. Yeah, that's an interesting was that, yeah, the mindset thing. Exactly.
Trish Morris 48:51
So it is very, you know, said that is very much mindset. And that's one of the things that I found when I've been working with the people and talking to them. Is that and it has the fact that was imposed, and they've had to do some of them have seen the benefit. That Well, actually, no, it does work, and I can't trust them. And I know, yes. But unless that unless the person who, who is the owner of the business, or the owners of the business, unless they're prepared themselves to, to grow and to be challenged, that business isn't going to grow. And that's one of the things you have to get over to them.
Jonathan Parnaby 49:38
Yeah. That's so important. Yeah.
Trish Morris 49:42
And if you think about it, we do have those conversations with some of the senior leadership team in a large organisation in a corporate because you still get you know, it's exactly the same level of it's type of thing and we'll, we'll we'll call them, you know, we'll have a steakhouse. list are the ones who were, you know, our influences the ones who were? Yeah,
Ian Kingstone 50:09
we've worked out who owns that stakeholder who's going to be who trusts? Who's that stakeholder gonna trust? How are we going to get and plan on? All of that stuff out? You know, same stuff. Yeah.
Trish Morris 50:18
Exactly the same. Yeah, that's exactly. So Boy, you normally you quite quickly can pinpoint the fact that your blocker is actually the person who's asked you to go in and make them help them make
Ian Kingstone 50:32
the change? Well, that's not too dissimilar. as well. Often is or mindset.
Jonathan Parnaby 50:45
Get over the line.
Ian Kingstone 50:47
Yeah. Well, it sounds like it sounds like enjoying yourself anyway. Trish.
Jonathan Parnaby 50:54
I think it's great. I think, like, to kind of have this conversation, it's a good reminder for me, like personally, as well, just to kind of go, just think about the language you use. Think about how you convey things to people. And, and, and just, yeah, just just kind of position things for people in different ways. And just have that empathy, as you know, and working with change Anyway, you should have give them thi, and putting up self in people's shoes. But But yeah, just you know that translation language is key. And, and essentially, in a nutshell, it's like, you know, there isn't a difference in what you need to do to land change, regardless of the size of organisation. It's just how you position it, and how I say, building trust and building relationships, people and to kind of work with them to get over the line. So yeah, really interesting. interesting topics. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that to us. Trish. It's been good pleasure. We get to the next part, which is a quiz time. While we go.
Trish Morris 52:00
Yeah. So the question is, What year did dexys midnight runners release? Come on? Eileen?
Jonathan Parnaby 52:07
Oh, come out. I think I know, Connie. I think do I know. Is it when I was born? Or was it the year after? I'm going to go eat so you can att ongoing 82 Do you want a month to month? Oh, yeah. Okay, I got it too.
Ian Kingstone 52:35
Early in the 80s thing, so I don't think it was that. I'm on and it was kind of mid 80s. I know. It probably wasn't late 80s I get that. But
Trish Morris 52:48
I can remember dancing to it in a nightclub a new cake. And I was 23 at the time. So that's approximately,
Ian Kingstone 52:59
was that mean? played afterwards? I mean,
Jonathan Parnaby 53:01
Ian Kingstone 53:08
Jonathan was just born then. I mean, come on.
Trish Morris 53:13
So that would be around about 1980.
Jonathan Parnaby 53:19
By Okay. Well, we get the answer wherever we're gonna be asked to then next episode for the answer. That's gonna bug me now. And I'm usually pretty good, right? I try not to love the answer until I know so it is a genuine, genuine like, Oh my god, really? So yeah, no, cool. Thanks for that. And yeah, I think we're probably at the end. But my my pint glasses run dry. And it looks like it's nearly last orders. But no, thank you Trish for coming and join us today. It's been
Trish Morris 53:55
really enjoyed it. Yeah. Brilliant. Great to catch up with you. Yeah. Yeah, look forward to listen to the rest of the podcast.
Jonathan Parnaby 54:04
Yeah. Welcome to but if you ever want to come back, you got any other topics or anything you kind of want to bring on? We're more than happy to allow you to return to so thank you very much. And yes.
Jonathan Parnaby 54:25
It's question time in. We've got a question from Sarah Lefevre. And please, Sara, if I butchered your last name, let me know. But Sarah is actually one of our oldest fans. She has been contacting us for hours since we started. So it's really good to get to hear from you, Sarah, but Sarah's question is based on an episode we did in season one, which we talked about change networks, and change ambassadors. She would like to understand a bit more about differences between a change ambassador and A sponsor of your programme.
Ian Kingstone 55:03
Alright. Yeah. Okay, cool. Let's, let's get into that then. Well, yeah, I mean sponsor sponsor? Yeah. Well, they can be the same thing. Can they? Yeah, start with that. Yeah. So, so you could have a sponsor, that is also a change ambassador. But let's, let's define a sponsor some. So without a formal definition in front of me, my definition response is a senior business person who, who wants this transformation or change to happen. And, and they're the one that's, that's kind of, if you want, they have the vision and the want for this, this this piece to happen. They also support it throughout the organisation and kind of own it throughout the organisation as the as the person who all people, it can be more than one. Very unusual, actually, I can't think of a thing where I've had more than one sponsor. In large transformation programmes, it's usually ideally one of the more senior executive, ideally, the CEO, depending on what you're changing and within the organisation. And yeah, they're usually the person that also kind of goes to the board for the money and all of that kind of thing. But But, yeah, and they're the kind of person you report to on progress and how that changes transformations going. Depending on what the sponsor is, in my view, they could be also the change in buster. So if if, let's say there's a large change going on in what should I pick on? That so it's just a change in operations or production of an organisation, a manufacturing organisation, you might have the chief operating officer who owns that area of the business, if you want, as a sponsor, because they're engaged in that area of the business is the most senior kind of person in that area of the business. They might also be the biggest change in buster. Yeah, they might not be the only change ambassador. But they might also be that change investor. So that's my first thoughts. I mean, there's probably a lot around that. What do you think? Yeah, I
Jonathan Parnaby 57:21
think I've kind of gotten my simplistic brain, which is coffee cups, because it's a, it's a Monday evening. But I kind of say the sponsor is the owner of that programme of work, right. So they're the one that a person or persons that are owning the programme being there, by driving that change, driving that transformation, and a change in bus there is a role which can be the same person or persons is the ultimate owner and accountable person for the change that's going to happen because of that programme. Does that make sense? So you kind of got the programme of work, driving the change, and, you know, coming up with all the new to be processes, the solutions, all the different things that are happening, as you said, I think that the finance is key there, you know, stumping up the cash to pay for everything, getting all the funding in place, and and ultimately making the hard decisions. So yeah, I can't see sponsor owning the ultimate accountable for making sure that programme happens and is successful from a delivery perspective, and the ambassador being more around ensuring that the change impacts and change delivery. realises the value.
Ian Kingstone 58:39
And I guess, I guess this thinking when you were saying that a change ambassador, I would, would play more of an active role in the change at the transition of GS and coaching, sponsoring and helpings. sponsor is probably the wrong word, but but helping other people in the business and is respected within the business, maybe mentoring people through that change as part of that business, or being a senior person usually in that business. Whereas a sponsor, although they may be that same role. If they're not, they're probably not playing that role to that same extent, with people going through channel transition. So a change in Buster to me is a very people thing, as well, as you know, they're the one that that's the leadership in that area. Yeah. Whereas the sponsor doesn't necessarily need to be a leader in that particular area. They may be the leader of the organisation that needs those changes in that particular area. But they can't ambass be the ambassador for those changes, maybe. You know, okay. an ambassador in production, as I was saying it could be the production manager or or operations director or something like that. Maybe that's the kind of,
Jonathan Parnaby 59:54
I think the point going back to kind of Sarah's sales question is that, you know, Try not to be too black and white about it. You know, it's these are just kind of roles that we've mentioned, obviously, in previous episodes and sponsors, obviously a very common role in pretty much every programme and projects and transformation. But I think that the main important thing is, is ensuring, you know, clarifying who's doing what? Yeah, what comes down to? Who do I need to go to, to get a steer on my programme? Wherever we should go left or right. Who should we go to? When we need to get support in making sure that the new processes are being adopted? And then not, you know, so it's kind of turning into those kind of questions and going to how we got people in the frame that can answer these kinds of questions. And as long as you understand that, that's, that's probably more important. Should they be this or should there be a that and but we do that alone, project land, don't we in programme land, we have roles and frameworks and things that we we kind of lean on and use and they are helpful. Don't get me wrong, but let's just make it clear. Apologies.
Ian Kingstone 1:01:06
Yeah, I think I think if you can make that clear, though, even if they and I agree, don't be so we don't need to be absolutely precise on that. But I think at the end of the day, it's also the clarity for them as the change in but as a change ambassador, or as a sponsor, what is expected of them. Yes. And I quite often see that especially more on the change Ambassador side, what's expected of them so they can do, they can play the role that they that we need them to play to make that successful. And that's often when you change the organisation, I've probably said this a lot of times, and I'll continue to keep saying that it takes different skills and capability to change the organisation than it does to run the organisation. Yeah, big time. And so that change Ambassador might be playing a different role than they normally play in so to speak, their day job, their programme, job has changed Ambassador may have to coach and help people through change, when normally, there's a structure management. So it's more leadership than management, if that makes sense. Makes sense. Probably a good bit of both, but I would take tainted towards the more leadership side.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:02:23
Cool. Well, hopefully we've answered down Sarah and great, great to hear from you again and keep keep those questions coming in. If you want to record a question for next time, just you know, just record that questions. And it's a house that beer and butterfly.co. UK because we love to get people's voices on this podcast right here.
Ian Kingstone 1:02:43
Yeah, now that's great. Sounds good. Right.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:02:46
Alright, see you next time. If last orders at the bar, so thank you for listening to the beer and butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation. You can
Ian Kingstone 1:02:55
get more details of the episodes on our website, which is www dot Behr and butterfly dot code at UK. That's www dot Behr and butterfly.co.uk.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:03:08
You can get in touch with the show by emailing us on posts, beer and butterfly Cody UK, send us your questions written or recorded. We'll come and join us at the table as a guest.
Ian Kingstone 1:03:19
Also check out our LinkedIn page, beer and butterfly podcast and on Twitter at butterfly underscore bear, where you can engage with the show directly and get involved.
Jonathan Parnaby 1:03:32
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.