Beer & Butterfly

Season 2 - Episode 4: To AS IS or not to AS IS, that is the question

July 07, 2021 Ian Kingstone & Jonathan (JP) Parnaby Season 2 Episode 4
Beer & Butterfly
Season 2 - Episode 4: To AS IS or not to AS IS, that is the question
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Ian & JP return and review their current progress on the pub quiz (not going well) and devote an episode to a question provided by Debbie Evans on whether we should do AS IS Analysis or not.  Our hosts recall the joys of the bank holiday weekend and enjoying the recent weather and talk about some films & TV (Army of the Dead & Taskmaster) and we get an update on Ian's aluminium gates.  This episode essentially unpacks the recorded question from Debbie and poses a "for" and "against" argument for doing AS IS Analysis within transformations.

  • 00:00 - Intro
  • 01:13 - Pub quiz - Question 4 Answer
  • 02:53 - What have we been up to?
  • 10:11 - Framing the episode
  • 11:24 - Question from Debbie Evans
  • 12:35 - Unpacking the question
  • 18:41 - Arguments for AS IS
  • 28:18 - Arguments against AS IS
  • 34:15 - A view of the way forward
  • 39:00 - Circumstantial and just enough approach
  • 44:15 - Pub quiz - Question 5
  • 45:43 - Last orders

Ian Kingstone  0:00  
Well what you having then Jonathan,

Jonathan Parnaby  0:05  
A pint please mate 

Ian Kingstone  0:06  
two pints, please landlord

Jonathan Parnaby  0:08  
So Ian, where's our audience sitting

Ian Kingstone  0:10  
there over there? sat at that table over there? 

Jonathan Parnaby  0:13  
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,

Ian Kingstone  0:18  
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:23  
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there who have we got

Ian Kingstone  0:27  
some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:33  
Cool, fantastic. Well, let's crack on lets get over there

Ian Kingstone  0:35  
Welcome to the Beer & Butterfly

Jonathan Parnaby  0:37  
A podcast where we talk transformation. 

Ian Kingstone  1:03  
I'm Ian Kingston. 

Jonathan Parnaby  1:05  
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.

Ian Kingstone  1:06  
And we're your hosts. 

Ian Kingstone  1:08  
In today's episode, we answer the question to AS IS or not to AS IS

Jonathan Parnaby  1:13  
Welcome back to the table in good to see your face again.

Ian Kingstone  1:19  
It's not been that long.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:21  
It's been a week, but it's been a long week. And we've had a bank holiday bang in the middle of it as well, for me. So yeah, I'm just saying I've missed you that's all it is. So, yeah, first thing we need to address, as always, in our episodes is the pub quiz answer from last week's episode. So this is from memory. I believe our question was, what year did Dexys Midnight Runners release "Come on Eileen" And the answer is

Ian Kingstone  1:54  

Jonathan Parnaby  1:56  
82. I think I said 82. 

Ian Kingstone  1:59  
You did you did got it right nailed it

Jonathan Parnaby  2:03  
nailed it. Yeah, it's because he's 80s music and that's my passion. That's one of the things I like. So yeah, there you go. For everyone out there and the listeners. That's the that is the the answer to the question. So hopefully, you've been keeping up with the pub quiz questions. If you haven't, check out our previous episodes, because we're running this pub quiz all the way for season two right in.

Ian Kingstone  2:27  
Yeah, we should we should leave the answers to the end of the season perhaps. Yeah,

Jonathan Parnaby  2:31  
yeah. get everybody to the end, and then reel off the answers in our retro or something. But, but spare fun, isn't it? It's quite good to, to kind of have a few little these questions and genuinely like, you know, i don't know half the answers to me say, yeah,

Ian Kingstone  2:48  
we'll have another one in a bit. 

Jonathan Parnaby  2:49  
So stay tuned. Keep listening. So anyway, mate, what have you been up to? Obviously, without a bank holiday, so hopefully you've been up to something really exciting. What's been going on?

Ian Kingstone  3:01  
Yeah, well, the weather's been good in that. 

Jonathan Parnaby  3:03  
It's been amazing.

Ian Kingstone  3:05  
So after weeks of rain, although it did rain today, but but I'm only little bit but now the weather was really good. So yeah, I've barbecues. Had some barbecues. I got one of these big fire pit stroke BBQ birthday earlier on in the year and I'm finally getting some good use out of it. But proper barbecues. Charcoal is not

Jonathan Parnaby  3:30  
you know and the only way to barbecue that's what you're saying?

Ian Kingstone  3:33  
Yeah, yeah, now I'm really enjoying that and that kind of stuff. had some friends around because we're now allowed to a few beers and stuff like that. And then a bit of cycling to try and burn off some of those beers. Which was which was good. good fun. Yeah, actually, yesterday I went out with a family for the first meal I've had out in a restaurant with the family since last September. 

Jonathan Parnaby  4:02  
Mad isn't it

Ian Kingstone  4:03  
It is mad we had a really nice time wasn't anything major that it was nice pizza. You know that just sitting around a table an hour and a half. Just Just being outside kind of sunny. You know, it was good. It was really nice. So that was actually down in Portsmouth because I was visiting my son. So yeah, the that kind of stuff really good. Really. Oh, one other thing before I let you have a go. My gates have been delivered my new aluminium gates. How exciting. Go on.

Jonathan Parnaby  4:38  
I was I was obviously you know reviewing the previous episodes. I completely forgot about your aluminium gates until I heard you

Ian Kingstone  4:44  
talking about there's gonna be a running theme I reckon. So they've been delivered. They've been delivered now got work out of put them up. I've got to get rid of the old gates get them up. And because they're now I've got a lot of thinking to do to get it right and I've got a concrete these posting stuff. So yeah, I'm sure hear more about it. I'm not planning to do it in a rush

Jonathan Parnaby  5:08  
for you get you get it on a deadline. So we get to our retro episode. We want them in mate, we want them functional

Ian Kingstone  5:16  
see how quickly I can get on with it. I don't think this side of August now. Yeah, hopefully this side of August.

Jonathan Parnaby  5:26  
Yeah. We got we got a, you know business transformation podcast, and then slightly converted into DIY. Yeah.

Ian Kingstone  5:36  
Well, not watched any new films not watch now. Much on telly to be honest with you. How about you? Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  5:43  
Speaking of films, yes, I've watched Army of the Dead, which is a new one

Ian Kingstone  5:50  
Yeah, any good. Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  5:52  
I really enjoyed it, I really love it, 

Ian Kingstone  5:54  

Jonathan Parnaby  5:55  
zombies, but essentially, they kind of pan it as Ocean's 11 meets, you know, Dawn of the Dead kind of thing. It really at it's centre is a heist movie. Okay, yeah. And it's set in Vegas. So it's obviously a ragtag team of, of people who have had experience of kind of zombies. And essentially, there's been there's been an outbreak in Las Vegas, and they've sealed it off with containers. So all of these zombie population as basically contained in what was Las Vegas and he's kind of been taken over and he's not just a straight up oh, they're just mindless zombies walking around. There's there's kind of an organised element to to them and I won't spoil it but and yeah, and they basically as casino owner says, I want 50 million dollars that same a vote in a casino because you can't get through it anymore. And he hires these guys who have had experience in Vegas find their way rescue survivors and stuff like that. And then they go in and things happen. People die. It's actually quite funny. It's very gory. It's directed by Zack Snyder, so he's got kind of a quirky quirky sense of humour, shall we say? But I'd recommend it it's a good watch the only thing I would say is like two and a half hours long and I was like yeah it kind of like I didn't think it needed to be two and a half hours long it's not Lord of the Rings you know it it's not that but you know what I enjoyed it it was a good kind of weekend flickto put on and in evenings my wife Chelle she enjoyed it as well.

Ian Kingstone  7:36  
Yeah, set that one aside if it's two and a half hours long it's not a that's a weekend job for me because

Jonathan Parnaby  7:44  
this week, but no, I mean, other than films well, TV wise have been getting into Taskmaster. Then if you watch it, I've not really followed Taskmaster. But if you seen it before, 

Ian Kingstone  7:57  

Ian Kingstone  7:57  
no idea what your talking about

Jonathan Parnaby  7:59  
Yeah, why are you talking about JP gone mad? No? It's it's channels four

Ian Kingstone  8:03  
sounds like blockbusters or something?

Jonathan Parnaby  8:05  
Yeah, no, it's, it's basically hosted by Greg Davies, and the comedian, and Alex Horne. And it's essentially a show about getting comedians to do these stupid tasks. Okay, it could be you know, they kind of turn on the open an envelope with a wax seal on it. And they'll say, right, you need to keep this basketball on the treadmill for as long as possible without using your hands. And you've got one minute, and before the treadmill goes on, off you go. And they're like, Oh my God, this, obviously, because you you put under pressurised situations, they do the most stupid things. So it's just really funny. It's just like, you know, task after task.

Ian Kingstone  8:49  
And I could do that. I come up with how I'm gonna do it,

Jonathan Parnaby  8:53  
ya know? Exactly. And it's just it is hilarious because everyone tries to cheat or tries to get around the system. But now I definitely recommend it loads of them to watch but other than that mate say it was sunny, as you said, barbecues are saying I got very dehydrated on Saturday. I don't think it was the beer. I think there's just the weather. And the other thing to mention is that actually hopped on a train to London for work purposes for the first time in since forever, which was actually quite nice to do. Yeah, it was a bit of a strange one. 

Ian Kingstone  9:28  
Was the train busy?

Jonathan Parnaby  9:31  
No, it was dead I liked it.

Ian Kingstone  9:36  
Moving office. Yeah,

Jonathan Parnaby  9:37  
it was pretty good. But no, yeah, it was good to just get out, you know, and, and still be a normal things. Like you said, like, you know, go to a restaurant, and I'm doing a normal thing. So yeah

Ian Kingstone  9:52  
is excited about doing normal things that, you know,

Jonathan Parnaby  9:57  
when he's taken away from you mate, he didn't leave Do you don't know what you've got until it's gone? And currently, some songwriter said, I can't recall. Anyway, should we move on?

Ian Kingstone  10:09  
Yeah, let's do this.

Jonathan Parnaby  10:11  
Yeah, let's move on. So today's episode is, is a bit of a different one Ian, isn't it? Because normally we have a topic, or kind of pre planned and prepared. And, and, and actually, this, this episodes kind of took us by surprise, in a good way, I might add in a good way. So we get questions from a variety of different listeners. And we could always do more questions. So there you go another plug listeners. If you haven't asked a question of as yet, please get in touch. But we had a question from Debbie Evans, who's a senior project manager. And she got in touch with me on LinkedIn, and started to ask around kind of thoughts on a topic around should you or should businesses and organisations doAS IS analysis or Current State analysis, or not to do AS IS analysis? And I just thought it was a really good topic, we thought we'd turn into the whole entire episode. So that's essentially what we've done. So Debbie has recorded the question for us, which we'll play in a second. And then we're gonna have a bit of a chat around it, right?

Ian Kingstone  11:20  
Yeah, sounds good.

Jonathan Parnaby  11:21  
Okay, so Debbie, take it away.

Debbie Evans  11:24  
Hello, Jonathan. And in. As someone who's often been involved in large scale change initiatives, I've been pondering over the question of whether detailed process mapping is really necessary in order to fully understand the true impact of any proposed change. And, in particular, how it will change the current ways of working? Will it change people's roles and responsibilities? Will it change the way in which teams interact with each other? How might people feel all really valuable information, I think, to help people transition through the changes ahead. I've seen it work really, really well. And and add real benefit, but I often find resistance to doing the detailed work. Why is that? True? It will take longer, and probably cost more to do the work. But will we ultimately recoup the investment later down the line? I'm willing to listen to and learn from alternative points of view. So the question I'd like to put forward is, what are the alternatives? And ultimately, without that detailed information? How can we make sure that individuals and teams are as prepared as they can be for any change coming their way?

Jonathan Parnaby  12:35  
OK, thank you for that, Debbie. It's really good. And and we again, we encourage anyone who wants to do a question, just like Debbie, record it, and send it to our email address, which is, thats And again, hopefully, you can kind of come up with some topics that we can discuss in the future. Right. So yeah, I think the first thing I wanted to kind of jump into and unpack Debbie's question, because I think, you know, it's quite a lot in there to kind of go around is, Debbie mentions about there being resistance to doing kind of the detail work in AS IS analysis or process mapping. And I thought that might just be a good starting point. Really. So, Ian, what was your thoughts that are like around? Why? Why do you think this resistance?

Ian Kingstone  13:27  
Well, it's a lot of work for a start. And I'm really mixed on this. So this is going to be an interesting conversation, because I've got real mixed views on this, from a pace and point of getting things done. And depending on the size and scale of things that can sometimes cause resistance, because if you've got if it's got to take three months, or six months or something to map out, you know, I that would cause too. So to answer your question resistances is probably, I would say one of the reasons would be, because it's a lot of work and it takes time, which means you can't then go after actually delivering some things that you feel you want to get on and deliver that's going to drive value, and all those other things. That I'm not saying it's not right to do that yet. And the other resistance probably is that not everybody writes their processes down. They're probably all completely out of date, which is why you got a map it. It looks then like kind of doing maybe a little bit of time and motion type thing. You know, it's it's that Yeah, I just Yeah, and some people don't know how to do it

Jonathan Parnaby  14:45  
I think that's a good point. You might Yeah, like, some people don't know how to do it, it it becomes a massive behemoth of a task isn't it? Like, we need to document exactly how we do things today. names like Chrysler Where do you start? Where do you start? And I think you hit the nail on the head for me is going after that value, right? So if I was the Exec and then we've got a plan. And so our plan is like three months of is doing AS IS analysis for like, why we're doing that. Like, we need to go on with this. And then again, it might be because your AS IS isn't good enough, obviously, that's why you're trying to do new things. But yeah, now I thought I'd just kind of ask that question, because I think the resistance to doing it could be many reasons to be fair couldn't it could be, people don't want to expose how they do things today, because they're quite protective of it. And, and if they know, there's gonna be changes in their area that might be fearful of what their part in the new world will be. So that might just, you know, dig their heels in things like that. Because you said, it could just be we've got, we know, we're gonna have to spend hours and hours and hours and workshops just to go through what we do today, and don't see the value.

Ian Kingstone  15:59  
It can be the other side of that as well couldn't it we don't want to tell people what we did today. And I don't mean that in an odd kind of, kind of way. I mean, I mean that they might feel that that's their competitive advantage, and they don't want to necessarily show people. Now, I think that should go the other way that that becomes really important. But some people, or the fact that if they show people the way do things do today, it kind of puts them out of a job potentially, kind of suggests that they could that could be automated, whereas that they don't tell people stuff, it can't necessarily be automated, because you still play this kind of. And I think a lot of people worry about that. So I can see resistance straight away on that.

Jonathan Parnaby  16:47  
The other things that came from my business analysis days, it's the whole tacit knowledge, argument, right? So people kind of get used to doing what they do, kind of find it really hard to explain and help document what they do. Because it's a bit like 

Ian Kingstone  17:07  
my PIN number, the number I can't I can't tell you my PIN number right now I can type into 

Jonathan Parnaby  17:14  
muscle memory. Muscle memories there knows it knows the sequence, 

Ian Kingstone  17:18  
I'm not going to tell you my pin.

Jonathan Parnaby  17:19  
No but it's true, like, you know, you're typing a password on your keyboard, you your fingers kind of know what to do. But, you know, obviously, and to try and explain that to someone you think about it, you have to really think it's like, is the driving a car? analogy, isn't it about unconscious incompetence, and kind of going all the way to? You know, I forget which way round it is unconscious competence. Yeah. And, again, like we drive a car, I drive to Birmingham. And I think I don't recall how I got there half the time, which is quite scary. But I'm not recording, or thinking where every gear movement every turn of the wheel, like a would be if I was learning. Yeah, and it's the same principle, if someone said, Tell me exactly how you got to Birmingham. And, you know, all the different kinds of routes and lanes that you took apart from

Ian Kingstone  18:15  
I reckon the M5 was definitely in it 

Jonathan Parnaby  18:18  
Probably was, you get my point, you get my point. And I think same with people, sometimes they can't always articulate every nuance about what they do. Because they just do it. And it's it's kind of ingrained in their brain anyway, we could talk about that forever. I just wanted to kind of start with that question. Because I think it's just good to talk about, but really want to get to the meat of this, this topic really about? Should you do aan AS IS or should you not do an AS IS So why would you? Let's let's get into that.

Ian Kingstone  18:48  
Why would you?

Jonathan Parnaby  18:49  
Why would you I think the traditional reason for doing analysis analysis, again, BA hat long is someone really, truly understand the gap, right. So to get into the gap analysis, you need to know what your baseline is, you need to know, kind of where you're coming from. So that when you get into your TO BE process design, you've then very clearly got the gap between that's what it used to look like, this is what it's going to look like. And he's everything in between from the tasks that needs to be done from the roles that need to do them, you know, everything kind of in between. So you kind of get that gap identified in a very tangible way. But as you say takes effort. So that's, that's an argument to do it.

Ian Kingstone  19:38  
Yeah. Okay. I mean, how do you want to do this. You want to go through all the arguments to do or do you want to talk about a negative in that?

Jonathan Parnaby  19:46  
Now let's, let's go just go through all the fors.  Okay, now, yeah. Okay, back, and we'll probably circle back to some of these because yeah,

Ian Kingstone  19:54  
it's gonna be time. I'm thinking about kind of the opposite that even though I don't I'm mixed on this whole point. And okay, yeah. So you've got that that gap analysis then enables the gap analysis, doesn't it? If you if you've done that, I think it then also allows you to kind of look at what's important there or priority. Let's say priority, what what, what are what are? What are the priority things that you might need to do? I guess, if you've got that you can see where the priorities are maybe more easy, or you can see where the challenges are bottlenecks are, you can see it. Yeah, I would have thought. Yeah, I want to get into the negatives. Sorry.

Jonathan Parnaby  20:46  
Where you land, I think I know where you land.

Ian Kingstone  20:50  
Well, this, this conversation might be getting me there. We will say,

Jonathan Parnaby  20:53  
though, it's fine. Now, I think the other bottlenecks and is quite useful, because, again, if you've got it drafted out, and you've got it, you know, kind of written up. And you can even model you know, a lot of AS IS processes using, you know, certain tools to kind of check for inconsistencies and bottlenecks, you know, by simulating those processes and throughputs. And, and checking how long things take.

Ian Kingstone  21:21  
That just sort of another resistance reason sorry. If you've got different processes. So let's take an organisation that say it might be a large organisation that's got different regions of the same function, but those functions might be completely different in the way that they process things, then you're not only mapping a set of processes for a

Jonathan Parnaby  21:47  
It's not the happy path anymore is,

Ian Kingstone  21:49  
yeah, you're mapping the loads of the same processes in different places, because they do them differently, because they're coming from different places, which probably segues quite nicely into change. Yeah, the reason to map it is to understand all that place there is purpose processes are quite aligned with the New World, whereas That place is existing AS IS processes over there are really massive difference. And there's a lot of change that so change is another reason to map it I reckon

Jonathan Parnaby  22:19  
Yeah, no, that's absolutely great shout, because you're taking the assumption that you're AS IS is just one version of the truth, if that makes sense. And there were different lenses on it, like, like most processes, as we, as we know, yeah, no, good, good. Shout. Good shout. I think another argument, why you should do it is identifying quick wins. Now, what I mean by that is, is, again, if you've got the thing visualised in front of you, you can understand what small differences to that process you can make, without the technology. without, you know, months and months of development of something, you could just enable a very quick lean process change, to kind of help you know, the business along in

Ian Kingstone  23:06  
process, change notes, what you can do before you get any new solution, or whatever you might be doing, what you have to do at transition, but this Yeah, I think there's loads of stuff you can quite often get out without doing some of the biggest stuff that you might be doing.

Jonathan Parnaby  23:22  
Yeah, because when you're doing AS IS mapping, you're not only you're just putting boxes and arrows together, you're not just doing that you tend to be identifying problem statements at the same time, because naturally, when you're talking to people interviewing them, workshopping all out, you'll naturally get, yeah, there's been some very good, well, why why is it not very good? We've, you know, Brenda? She's always late in delivering in the invoices. Why? And it's getting it's getting into that that lean, Six Sigma kind of thinking, right? Which is why, why, why, why and keep asking why. And so we get to root causes. So again, I think having AS IS mapping really helps to enable that, because you kind of have to understand how things work today in order to help improve them. But again, it depends on excuse me, it depends on what your project or initiative is there to do. Is it there to just look at enhancing your processes of which case, then, obviously, as is mapping is probably an important part of it. If it is the look, you know, more transformational then obviously that can be questioned.

Ian Kingstone  24:29  
I think you could you could you could argue so we talked about the resistance there earlier. And you know, you can't get on with some things too quickly, if you're doing AS IS says can take three months or six months to go and do that. But that work. You could argue then that by focusing on maybe where you do AS IS and taking quite a structured approach to think right, where we think there's some quick wins. Let's go and do that a bit first. Because we might be able to get some quick wins quicker means actually, you don't waste six months waste, you don't take six months to get

Jonathan Parnaby  25:11  
You can tell listeners that Ian doesn't like AS IS mapping.

Ian Kingstone  25:15  
You don't take so long to get to that, you know, to the point of where you can actually start delivering some change if you want, because you, you could target it in a way, which is actually where I think I do lie. But we'll, we'll get to that bit.

Jonathan Parnaby  25:34  
I think the last, the last point I've got on the for argument for AS IS analysis is, is around change impacts. So I think if you've got the AS IS mapped out again, and then you get into the design of the TO BE, you can literally look and overlay one across another. And again, it goes back to the gap analysis, but you can look at the Change Impacts as well from certain angles and identify what you think they're going to be. Because you visually got the picture of of A and B

Ian Kingstone  26:07  
And it's kind of a bit more factual, isn't it?

Jonathan Parnaby  26:09  
It definitely is more factual. It's not, not anecdotal base is definitely factual base.

Ian Kingstone  26:14  
Yeah. So you've got that? Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I think. And that is better than just people sayingtheres loads of change there. Why, you know, you can back it up with some facts, if you want, which is, which is probably a good thing, I guess.

Jonathan Parnaby  26:34  
Give me the Why is there gonna be a lot of change? Yeah, always this point here, right in the process, Section A, you know, task B, that's the bit that we need to really be worried about oh cool you know, so you can get really specific rather than, you know, generic about some of those stuff. So, again, I think to round the round off the for argument, I think, you know, to do with AS IS analysis, I think, again, you you brought it to life is do you need to do an entire organisation? Well, it depends what your initiative is what you're trying to achieve, you know, you might take a hybrid approach, you might just only look at areas where, you know, you've got certain intellectual property that differs from best practice that you want to just go and check. And, you know, for example, if we were going to include the HR system, does the processes in HR that you do in the company, should they be wildly different to other companies? And therefore do I need to get into it? 

Ian Kingstone  27:32  
That's really, really important. We just said there. And I think and I'm trying not to jump ahead, that, pick. If you if you think there's some areas that you've got competitive advantage over, be really clear on where you think they are? Because if they're in for want of a better term, bog standard areas, like, I don't know, processing an invoice, or, you know, if they're in something that that everybody does on the planet, in trade, or or whatever. Why are they likely to give you a competitive advantage? I'm not saying they won't. But you got to be pretty clear that that's actually competitive advantage, not just, we've always done it that way.

Jonathan Parnaby  28:15  
Yeah. So yeah, right. Let's flip the coin, then I know you're ready. I know you've got your list So against, against Yeah, again, why? 

Ian Kingstone  28:26  
Why shouldn't? Why shouldn't we do it quite a lot of the time. And it comes back to that example that I gave earlier, really, quite a lot of the time, a lot of organisations want to change, because they want to get to a new kind of, let's call it best practice, or new way of working. And so they want to adopt new processes, the TO BE processes, they don't need or want to keep the old processes. So you know, why spend ages mapping them out, when you just got to move straight to where you're going to go? Which I know then says Well, what's the gap? But surely, we can find that gap. Without having to map everything out, we can talk to people, right and say, we're going to this, this this new new way. So, so it's kind of a lot, you know, if I was going to a modern ERP system or enterprise resource planning system, and you know, I know that all the new modern ERP solutions, have a standard process mapping, you know, out of the box, so why wouldn't I just take that TO BE and and just do a little bit of a view of for how different how how far off is that but I don't need to go map all my old processes to do it. Right.

Jonathan Parnaby  28:32  
Yeah. And I think that's that's a good point is if a company, or organisation has the self awareness that they know that AS IS processes are more for better word, crap, For all different, all different

Ian Kingstone  30:03  
Five different sites that are all different in the way they do things, yet they're actually all need to be doing the same thing. And that's actually what we want to change we want to standardise on how we do these things. Therefore, why wouldn't we just say this is where we're going to? What's the problems with moving to that? What what, you know, kind of thing?

Jonathan Parnaby  30:26  
Yeah, it's looking at in reverse, isn't it? It's like starting with TO BE, which is the best practice approach. And then kind of getting the right stakeholders in the room to then go, right. Based on that, then from maybe, you know, a change in parts perspective, or the different categories, again, that we we've talked about in the previous season. You know, from a policy perspective, from a process perspective, from a roles perspective, from a cultural perspective, what what do we need to be aware of what do we need to be listening to, and and to get that, that kind of detailed level of change impact out. And again, I think you don't need an AS IS analysis or analysis map to identify a change in price whatsoever. It's not required. But as we said, it's kind of like the AS IS map kind of helps inform the the change impact, you don't necessarily need it, because you can get that from from listening to people talking to people and taking them on the journey to understand this is, this is how the new world's gonna look, and really start to understand why they feel that such change and dig into it.

Ian Kingstone  31:35  
Yeah, and I've seen, so another reason against mapping out your AS IS, is I've seen people make those processes more than they need to be, or more than they are. So they're trying to justify they're not, they're trying to show how great they are, or how great their processes are, that they've had for years or whatever. So they they, they make them out to be more than they are. Yeah, and spend a lot of time on that. Which is, if you've decided you're moving to the new processes, is kind of a little bit in my mind a bit of a waste of time and glorifying their reasons to not change. Yeah, you're almost embedding their reasons to not change. You're almost creating "fueling it aren't you". Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're not incentivizing them a different way in that kind of process. And finding more problem statements is another thing. So you might be kind of finding more problems. So this is the kind of reverse of what I've just said, you're finding more problems, because you want to go to the new process to solve more problems. Yeah, but you're kind of making problems that we didn't have. Or you might aren't really as big a problem as you've made out, when actually didn't need to actually move them to the new process anyway,

Jonathan Parnaby  32:55  
Exactly best practice process? That would have eliminated probably 90% of the bleeding problems exist? Yeah,

Ian Kingstone  33:01  
I mean, that kind of helps me value. But you should have been doing that a bit. Before all of that anyway. Do you see what I mean. So So it's around the people say it again, though? I think

Jonathan Parnaby  33:13  
it always is. And I think it was this. Yeah. The other thing to kind of talk about on the against argument, is the risk appetite of the company and its culture, I suppose. And actually, if you're working for a company that's risk averse, then they might find it difficult to to kind of move into a world where an AS IS state hasn't been mapped to some degree. Yeah. But if you're working for a company who likes to take risks, then they might be more comfortable in in getting into that, that to be

Ian Kingstone  33:48  
size and scale of that as well, isn't it? Yeah, if there's people that are worried that they might miss something, if they jump straight to the new processes and expose, it depends where the new processes came from, if they're best practice, it shouldn't be such a risk, right? But that, you know, if they're proven somewhere else, so to speak, it shouldn't be such a risk. So risk appetite is is going to be different by different companies, but it's also going to be different by the size and scale of the work you're doing. I have a view on an answer to this.

Jonathan Parnaby  34:18  
gonna share the view,

Ian Kingstone  34:20  
my view is that there's a couple of ways you could approach this, you could approach it where you only do as is, I think we discussed this a little bit earlier for those nuances that, you know, that may be very specific to you to check that they fit with the new world or where they fit with the new world. And you do that when you need to do it. Not necessarily at the front end, that you've got to think about the change there. But yeah, you know,

Jonathan Parnaby  34:47  
More of a diagnostic isn't it

Ian Kingstone  34:52  
Or you break it down into more of an agile way of working. Okay, yeah. And then you can mix the two again, you can do a bit of well, in some areas, we ought to map out the to the AS IS. But you might deliver some other things without doing it that way. But you, you don't necessarily need to do all the AS IS and TO BE design upfront, if you're working with more agility in the way that you're delivering whatever you're delivering, and that can quite often depend on what you're delivering. In my world, there's some things that fall better into more of a waterfall type delivery. And then there's some things that suit quite fine to more of an agile type delivery. I don't want to get into agile and waterfall and hybrid and the question whether hybrid actually exists. But but but you know, you, it is about thinking about what you're actually trying to change.

Jonathan Parnaby  35:47  
I think with an agile kind of approach, as you've said, you can do a lot more test, learn iterate, kind of mantras, which is, you know, usually means you kind of, you know, you're happy to take the risk and test this little bit and see, is it working? Have we gone in the right direction? Are we generating the value that we thought you would have just on this little increment that we've we've done, and, and then you can measure that and move on to the next bit and the next bit of the next bit? Because you've broken it down into, you know, sort of baby steps or, or individual steps that it makes sense. But as you said, it doesn't fit everything? And again, it just comes back to what's the initiative? What was the objective that you're trying to do here? Is it a large scale transformation that's going to impact all the departments of that company? is it changing the operating model? Is it tweaking just departments processes? And looking at making them better? You know, is it a merger and acquisition where you integrate another business and like, it just depends, I mean, business change and transformations wide, far wide and meeting and very embryonic in, in this things kind of happen. So again, I think, kind of lifting out of the for and against argument. Now. I think it's just coming up with that approach that sensible. So 1), the organisation and it's culture 2) the, the, you know, the project or programming initiative that you're doing, so that you're covering the risks that you need to you're getting the information that you need to, in order to kind of help prepare,

Ian Kingstone  37:21  
I think there's a third, I think he's the people and capabilities. Yeah, the team delivering the change, or the partner, or whatever, if you've got some really experienced people who've done this, a lot of times, you can probably move more at stealth, more agile, at a faster pace. Because I'm not saying that the people who who, if the organisation is used to going through change, or has a higher level of maturity across some of those capabilities. Again, you're probably going to be able to move at about a bit better pace, and a bit more on the fly, than you would if you were for one of a better word immature in transformation capability. I'm not saying that's strictly true, because depends on the level of the people that are going through the change, as well as the people who are doing the change. And we've had this conversation. In fact, I think you said it in the last episode, or the one before takes different capabilities to change an organisation to run an organisation. But But I think, yeah, if you're gonna put three, three things, I think that culture is definitely important. But I will also say that capability of the people doing or managing or supporting 

Jonathan Parnaby  38:36  
It is important. And like I said, that was just came out of my head whilst I was talking, I didn't have a list people. Just, yeah. Hopefully, you're probably understanding from our listeners. We we we tend to just talk don't we Ian

Ian Kingstone  38:52  

Jonathan Parnaby  38:54  
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I suppose to kind of round round this off there mate. Is the the arguments that we talked about, should we do it? Shouldn't we do it? And I think where I sit, and it isn't on the fence is kind of just depends on the approach, right? Depends on what you doing,

Ian Kingstone  39:12  
I'm more on more than not do it. Yeah. I'm more than how can we work away of not having to do this than I am having to do it? Yeah. I'm not saying I wouldn't suggest to do it. Because it depends on the circumstances. And I don't want to be you know, but if you said I was sitting on the fence, and probably falling off towards the not doing it side, more than I am, lean into the do it.

Jonathan Parnaby  39:39  
Yeah, I think the hybrid approach is the reality. Because I'm just thinking of one of the programmes that I've just recently been working on. And when I did a discovery, around putting in a customer relationship management solution, and in that discovery, I did a bit of current state analysis. What didn't do well was level five process mapping to the nth degree, I didn't do that, because I felt it wasn't necessary to do. And I felt as the culture of the organisation that I was working with, wouldn't have benefited from from that and various different reasons, they're a startup, they wouldn't have documented any of this stuff anyway, all working virtually remotely. And I probably would have burned six months, not six months, but you know, a long, long time of the programme to get to that state. So the hybrid approach, what what I sold into into that organisation, was to kind of look at a very high level use case, picture, like a rich picture, essentially, of the different areas that I felt CRM would touch in the business around the marketing around the sales and around service. And that's what I did, I'm mainly treated it as around a way of capturing their problem statements. That's, that was the thing I prioritise out of that current state analysis. It wasn't all the roles and who does what it was more what the issues you're having, because I wanted to make sure that when I went into the TO BE desired state analysis, that, you know, there's problems are going to be taken care of, or at least ones relating to the CRM that I could link would be taken care of, if that makes sense. So I'm not a massive, we should AS IS everything to the nth degree. But again, it just depends, right? If you'll do work instructions, if your project is there to do work instructions on how things work, then yeah, of course, you've got to do it. Course. Yeah,

Ian Kingstone  41:35  
I think I think it's just enough, isn't it? It's, yeah, it's doing the right amount and circumstances you're in and having that ability to understand that and as challenging for somebody maybe doesn't know, the what level should they do it. So then it's about a little bit of a risk assessment. And using that risk kind of thing, and I'll come back to value again, as I always do. And, you know, when you're doing that value dependency, you're seeing the change, you see in kind of that side. So that's another way of rather than just mapping processes, you're mapping value, it kind of, you can see where there's changing where there's differences and things. So you can do a little bit of some things, your data process mapping, so it's just enough. And I think if you're doing a few of those things, you're probably going to get a gut feel, and most of the things to understand the level of change and the length of time and all of that kind of stuff for you to be able to plan and sensibly achieve the same as you would by directly mapping them.

Jonathan Parnaby  42:32  
Yeah. And I think it's around the conversation off, you know, when we talk about raising the bar as our season theme, I think that's how you raise the bar. And it isn't a case of you should do it, or you shouldn't do it. And actually, there is one right answer, because the notes in there is, is understanding and being mature enough, I suppose in your decision making and thinking that you need to do the right level of it, if needed, if required. And and being aware of the organisation you're working in, as we said before,

Ian Kingstone  43:02  
yeah, the impacts of what you've decided, so if not gonna do it in that area. I know that I might have when I'm planning that, I might want to put some contingency around it. Whereas if I am going to do it in this area, I'm probably going to be more right. But it might, you know, and it's that kind of logic, isn't it?

Jonathan Parnaby  43:19  
Absolutely. Well, Debbie, we've kind of just given the question, a good kind of, you know, thinking and unpacked it. And hopefully we've gone through some thoughts on the for and against argument. But no, thank you very much for bringing that into the episode, I thought was great that we could just create a whole episode out of this. And essentially, if anyone's kind of listened to our season opener and gone well, I don't remember this, this being in the list of episodes is because it wasn't and and actually, we love that I loved, I loved the fact that our episode list was on I don't want to use the word disrupted, but you know, kind of changed it in a real positive way because it's now the listeners that contributing into what we're going to talk about. And that's ultimately where we want to get to right Ian.   And so yeah, that's fantastic. So thank you again for that. So finishing off the episode, then pub quiz time. 

Ian Kingstone  44:16  
Oh, yeah. 

Jonathan Parnaby  44:19  
Are you ready for this one?

Ian Kingstone  44:20  
Go on there

Jonathan Parnaby  44:21  
is a sciencey one okay to science, science, how's your science?

Ian Kingstone  44:25  
Got an honours degree in it,

Jonathan Parnaby  44:29  
You'll know this then, no pressure. So, what element is denoted by the chemical symbol Sn in the periodic table? How is your periodic table knowledge

Ian Kingstone  44:46  
used to be quite good, but that's because I memorised it so long ago and I filled my head with so much junk since then. Then that wasn't in my degree,

Jonathan Parnaby  44:56  
Sn Sierra November.

Ian Kingstone  45:00  

Jonathan Parnaby  45:01  
I would never have got this if you if you'd asked me this.  I've never I've got it. 

Ian Kingstone  45:05  
Yeah, no, I'm not gonna I'm not even going to attempt it. 

Jonathan Parnaby  45:08  

Jonathan Parnaby  45:10  
I don't want to look so dumb, they'll take my degree away.

Jonathan Parnaby  45:18  
Great stuff. Well, today because we've based the whole episode around a question, we're not going to do a question today. We'll save that for next time. So, so yeah, so we'll end the episode here. We finished our pints it's time to take the glasses to the bar. And yeah, thank you for joining us again at the table at the Beer & Butterfly. We love having you here.

Ian Kingstone  45:41  
Yeah, thanks very much.

Jonathan Parnaby  45:42  
See, you see if you want to record a question for next time. Just you know, just record that question send it to we love to get people's voices on this podcast, Ryan.

Ian Kingstone  45:55  
Yeah, no, it's great. Sounds good.

Jonathan Parnaby  45:57  
Right. Alright, see you next time. It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the beer and butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation. You can

Ian Kingstone  46:07  
get more details of the episodes on our website, which is That's

Jonathan Parnaby  46:19  
You can get in touch with the show by emailing us on Send us your questions written or recorded. We'll come and join us at the table as a guest.

Ian Kingstone  46:30  
Also check out our LinkedIn page, Beer & Butterfly Podcast and on Twitter @butterfly_beer, where you can engage with the show directly and get involved.

Jonathan Parnaby  46:43  
Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.

Pub quiz - Question 4 Answer
What have we been up to?
Framing the episode
Question from Debbie Evans
Unpacking the question
Arguments for AS IS
Arguments against AS IS
A view of the way forward
Circumstantial and just enough approach
Pub quiz - Question 5
Last orders