Beer & Butterfly

Season 2 - Episode 6: MID SEASON - Transformation Speed Dating

July 21, 2021 Ian Kingstone & Jonathan (JP) Parnaby Season 2 Episode 6
Beer & Butterfly
Season 2 - Episode 6: MID SEASON - Transformation Speed Dating
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

The halfway point has been reached with Season Two and Ian & JP catch-up once again to try something new which they call "Transformation Speed Dating".  After catching up the hosts embark on an episode which is unplanned and randomised by splitting the conversation into "personal / getting to know you topics" and "business transformation topics from the BTM2 framework (Business Transformation Management Framework)" that are driven randomly by spinning the wheel.

  • 00:00 - Intro
  • 01:12 - We are half way there
  • 02:43 - Pub quiz - Question 6 Answer
  • 04:51 - What have we been up to?
  • 12:50 - Transformation speed dating
  • 16:04 - Spin the wheel
  • 41:41 - Pub quiz - Question 7
  • 43:39 - Last orders

Ian Kingstone  0:00  
Well, what you have and then Jonathan,

Jonathan Parnaby  0:05  
A pint please mate

Ian Kingstone  0:06  
two points, please landlord

Jonathan Parnaby  0:08  
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting

Ian Kingstone  0:10  
there over there? sat that table over there? 

Jonathan Parnaby  0:13  
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,

Ian Kingstone  0:18  
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:23  
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there who have we got

Ian Kingstone  0:27  
some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:33  
Cool, fantastic. Well, let's crack on lets get over there

Ian Kingstone  0:35  
Welcome to the Beer & Butterfly

Jonathan Parnaby  0:37  
A podcast where we talk transformation. 

Ian Kingstone  1:03  
I'm Ian Kingston. 

Jonathan Parnaby  1:05  
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby. 

Ian Kingstone  1:06  
And we're your hosts. 

Jonathan Parnaby  1:08  
In today's episode, we try a bit of transformation speed dating.

Ian Kingstone  1:12  
So we're here we've made it to mid season.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:15  
I know, I'm just sitting here thinking our we already have the mid season point of season two. And he only feels like yesterday when we just did the opener.

Ian Kingstone  1:26  
I think that's because season one took us so long.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:31  
Just thinking the same thing is probably because we are a hell of a lot more efficient now in actually producing, you know, podcasts and getting recordings done and getting through the whole end to end.

Ian Kingstone  1:43  
Or we've just got really slap happy with the way we do to

Jonathan Parnaby  1:48  
our quality is nosediving as, as the episodes go on. No, in all seriousness no it's really good to get to this halfway point and reflect back. Right and just thing we already had three guests on in the season. And we're not done yet. Right, we still got some more to go, which is so excited just having the you know, the different variety of conversations we had, you know, last week with Tim on on the whole simulation gaming, and jTrish talking about scaling of SMEs and and Sarah, around the whole procurement in change, just really good meaty conversations. And I think I've really enjoyed them. I mean, let's face it takes some of the weight off us as well. But it's been really good to kind of have that third seat field. And I think, you know, go back to that retro episode of season one that's a good achievement, right? I think we're on track of what we're trying to do. 

Ian Kingstone  2:42  

Jonathan Parnaby  2:44  
we're gonna start the episode and as it's a mid season episode, it's gonna be a bit bit different structure wise to what episodes but we're still continuing our pub quiz, that's still going to be a thing we're going to run through. So hopefully, you've been following if you haven't, please check out our previous episodes, and join in on the pub quiz for season 2. So hopefully you've been getting them all right, if you're anything like me, and then we haven't, because we're not very good at them. And I think this this one that we had asked from Tim, in the last episode, I definitely got wrong. So the question was, where is Stilton made in the UK? Or where was Stilton made? I don't think the UK was even mentioned. Because if anyone listened to my last comment on the last one, so I think I said France, so I was way off.

Ian Kingstone  3:34  
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Jonathan Parnaby  3:36  
As I said, I'm not up on my cheeses, I'm just not the cheese connoisseur. So I have no idea. So go on any and what is put me out my misery Well,

Ian Kingstone  3:46  
apparently, according to Wikipedia, it's a it's a protect is protected by designation of origin. So so whatever that means, but it basically means it can be produced in only three counties, Derbyshire, Leicestershire, and Nottinghamshire in the UK, and, but the reason it's called Stilton is it takes its name from the village of Stilton. Which guess what is in Cambridgeshire? So, right? So it's been sold from Cambridgeshire, but it can only be produced in Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire. Sure if I've read that correctly. And it's made by cows.

Jonathan Parnaby  4:30  
Okay, so it's not France then.

Jonathan Parnaby  4:32  
Now. Okay, well, I'm just going to say thank you, Tim. for that one. Yes. That set up for a fail that definitely may be by now. Okay. Interesting that that's one I'll sure I'll forget. Remember next time, but anyway, let's get into it. So what, what's been going on in what's been going on in your world, but it's not been

Ian Kingstone  4:55  
long time since we last spoke, but I've finished Well, let's start with TV if you want or no movies and unfortunately for me, but I've still got a couple that you mentioned that I'm going to watch but haven't done any of that but I finished the Falcon in the Winter Soldier. Finish that as brilliant

Jonathan Parnaby  5:18  
and low just for before you go into it. What did you think of the new Captain America?

Ian Kingstone  5:25  
I thought he was all right. Actually it kind of went one way and then the other way and but you actually kind of gained a little bit a liking for him, I think. 

Ian Kingstone  5:34  
Yeah, I thought because it's Wyatt Russell's, it's Kurt Russell son who plays him. Yeah. It's one of these things where everyone will come online. We're going. Now he's not he's not he's not going to replace Steve Rogers like that. That's not the point. It wasn't there to replace it is there to be the ante kinf of hero.

Ian Kingstone  5:54  
I kind of felt sorry for him.

Jonathan Parnaby  5:55  
Yeah. Oh, 100%.

Ian Kingstone  5:57  
You know, as it went on, and yeah, the dark side that happened there. But that was him trying to do live up to that thing that he's been told he's got to live up to right. So now I know. I really enjoyed that. And I found it quite funny as well. Which which made it I actually thought it gave another element to it 

Jonathan Parnaby  6:16  
It's a buddy move isn't it? 

Ian Kingstone  6:18  
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, not maybe. But yeah. But but then. And then, of course, this week, or last week. Loki came out on Disney

Jonathan Parnaby  6:27  
I've not watched it yet. I'm, like, frustrated because I'm I'm dying to sit and I think after this recording, I'm going to go downstairs. And I'm gonna say to Chelle my wife so we're putting Loki on because I know I'm gonna get it spoiled. And so don't spoil it.

Ian Kingstone  6:43  
I'm not gonna spoil it. But what I'm gonna say is he was my favourite anyway. And it's another one of those things that that where you watch it and you're, well, I just really like it. And and the way they've done it is they have

Jonathan Parnaby  6:59  
kinda know what not what it's about, but I know that. It's like, Oh, God, sorry for boring the listeners on this because I'm going to get into the Marvel Cinematic Universe here. But I noticed the Loki from the 2012 Avengers that that it focuses on. It's that version of Loki rather than the one that ends obviously ends up dying. Spoiler alert in Infinity War. So I know it's about time and

Ian Kingstone  7:22  
there's Yeah, that's the whole thing. secret's out, so I can't tell you any more than that. But but that's how it works. So it's it's great. But it felt to me. Like it got the same kind of fun and weirdness about it as Thor Ragnarok got,

Jonathan Parnaby  7:38  
okay. Okay.

Ian Kingstone  7:40  
So it's kind of you know,

Jonathan Parnaby  7:42  
isn't it? It's very zany, zany.

Ian Kingstone  7:44  
Yeah, exactly. So I quite like it, but but I'm not gonna say any more. I ruin it. And then the only other thing I've been the only other thing that I promised my dog I would mention, is the 11. 

Jonathan Parnaby  7:57  
Promise your dog. 

Ian Kingstone  7:58  
Yeah, yeah. It's 11th birthday today.

Jonathan Parnaby  8:03  

Ian Kingstone  8:04  
so you know he's a big old dog, sir. And I just had to give it Alfie had to put put him on and give him a mention. Happy birthday.

Jonathan Parnaby  8:14  
Happy birthday Alfie Bless you.

Ian Kingstone  8:17  
Again. I'll say that's all I can. That's all I can give you today.

Jonathan Parnaby  8:22  
Have you got him a cake or something? Or dog?

Ian Kingstone  8:25  
treat? Yeah, you know, any? Any a quick

Jonathan Parnaby  8:30  
thank you for that. Brilliant. Cool. I've not really been up to. I've been up to a few things, but I went away this weekend literally just got back this morning. spent the weekend in Pembrokeshire, Tenby in South West Wales. And yeah, took the family away got a caravan kind of for a long weekend and the act of the weather is has been just phenomenal. And no it's been coming for it. Yeah, I spent stonking mid 20s or whatever it is felt it felt like just being abroad so we hit the beach I got absolutely sunburned as you can tell by my red face obviously the listeners can't tell but you can and but yeah, we just did all sorts of things. Lots of activities for the kids they went out there did a bit of archery lots of swimming and a kid you not right so they've got an outdoor pool. We booked to go in obviously because the COVID you have to book and there's limited numbers and stuff. I was expecting this nice cool refreshing you know as I jumped in the poor class is gonna be really really good. And it was like getting a hot tub. Honestly, like I was hotter inside the pool than it was outside and bearing in mind it was a warm weekend. And I just you know any kind of given a hot so when you go weak because of the heat and you just feel like you've got any energy to get out exactly like that.

Ian Kingstone  9:50  
My last hot tub I sat in was the same hot tub that Biden might have sat in this weekend because it was in the same hotel as he stayed on wall. Yeah, there's about a 10 year gap.

Jonathan Parnaby  10:05  
Hope they cleaned it?

Ian Kingstone  10:08  
Yeah, so do I sign it and at these kinds of ideas that we could do with one of these in the front room to watch the movies well, that never happened 

Ian Kingstone  10:16  
Fair enough, fair enough.

Jonathan Parnaby  10:17  
no, we, we Yeah, we just had a nice kind of family weekend. But you know, what, we kind of sit down we played games and stuff and, and what I like about it is like, you kind of don't have all the fancy stuff you just used to now you know, the Netflix and everything we had a television, but it was just terrestrial TV, right? So it kind of reminded me being back in like the 90s or 80s, where we only had like four channels, well we had more because it's like Freeview

Ian Kingstone  10:49  
is starting to sound a bit old. And I think I've got about 10 years on you.

Jonathan Parnaby  10:55  
But in a good way, like because sometimes I think you get more like too much choice. I want you to watch and you're like, like 500 films, or do you want to watch? Whereas actually what like, he was just saying what film is on Film 4 on Sunday. And then we got a lot It was the Full Monty? Right. Yeah, we sat down. I mean, me and my wife just Yeah, what's the Full Monty Would I have watched the Full Monty if had a choice? No, probably not. But we sat down and watch it because it was the only thing that was really on. And honestly, sometimes when when choices taken away from you, is actually quite nice. He just got on with what's there. And yeah, but you're right. I did sound old there. So apologies.

Ian Kingstone  11:38  
are allowed to go,

Jonathan Parnaby  11:40  
sir. Yeah, I just remember that. He reminds me of an old television I had. And if my brother's ever listening to this, he'll probably start laughing now because I know exactly where I'm going. And we had a television. So this is pre remotes, right? This is before your remotes, the buttons for the channels on the TV itself. So you have to get up and press the button to change the channel. And I swear I'm not making this up. The buttons kind of work like a calculator, right? So if you press one and two together channel one and two, you'd get ITV you'd get three.

Ian Kingstone  12:12  
Yeah. Not seen that before?

Jonathan Parnaby  12:15  
No, it was brilliant. And I was thinking that's the best thing I loved about it. Even though we

Ian Kingstone  12:21  
are in some some machine learning or artificial intelligence in your Telly.

Jonathan Parnaby  12:26  
In 1985 Yeah. God. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah, just really weird. Just really weird thing. We tried to do different combinations. Because I think even though he only we could get four channels. Yeah, he went up to nine, I had zero. So then there's 10 buttons. So we're just trying different things. But I do not know why I'm talking about this. So maybe I should,

Ian Kingstone  12:46  
we should move on.

Jonathan Parnaby  12:48  
just popped in my head. So. So we this is the mid season kind of break. So we did say in our season two opener that we're going to try and do it a bit of an experiment didn't we. That's what we kind of said. So I kind of dubbed this as transformation speed dating, right? And you might be thinking, What the hell are you talking about? But I just thought, let's do an episode where we don't plan. Right, which you might argue is most of them. But But let's do one. Well, actually, the topics are,

Ian Kingstone  13:20  
give away, don't give away our secrets.

Jonathan Parnaby  13:24  
But let's do an episode where the topics are randomised so that we don't actually know what's coming. So it might it might work. It might not it might be a complete disaster. And if it is a disaster listeners, then you probably won't ever hear this because it will be in the archives. But if it's if it works okay, obviously, you're listening to it now. So, so yeah, so essentially, we're gonna kind of split this into two sides of a coin. 

Jonathan Parnaby  13:47  
So we want you as our listeners to get to know us a little bit better. And I thought maybe we can kind of do in that speed dating kind of random way as I've got a random conversation starter, web page up, which I'm just going to refresh. And it's going to generate a topic and a me & Ian. And I'm just going to talk about whatever that topic is. And that could be a whole range of stuff. So just be prepared Ian who knows what's coming, and actually be quite good because like, maybe there are things I don't know about you in and vice versa. I'm sure there's lots and lots that because we work together a lot to talk about work a lot, but maybe haven't had a chance to talk about some of this stuff. So that's quite nice. 

Jonathan Parnaby  14:27  
And then the other side of the coin because this is the business transformation podcast. We want to obviously talk about business transformation as well. So what we've done is loaded in. For those that aren't familiar, we've loaded in the framework, which is all around business transformation management is called BTM2. So in please chime in on this one, but it's essentially a framework that really helps to kind of support business transformation in organisations and looks at all aspects right from kind of senior leadership from strategy. All the way through change delivery that the whole kind of arc, right. So I know if you've got any other wise words on BTM2 

Ian Kingstone  15:06  
You've covered alfre good is sentenced, it's an n to n. methodology that covers pretty much most of the disciplines you need for business transformation, 

Jonathan Parnaby  15:16  
I recommend if n was not heard of it, or kind of not come across it before then, you know, just put it into Google right, it's gonna come up and start learning some some stuff about it, because it's really, really helpful as a tool. But what I've done is I've loaded in kind of capabilities or aspects of BTM2 into a spin the wheel. And then essentially, what we're gonna do is going to hit that it's going to spin randomly pick a topic, or an element of BTM2, and we're going to very quickly talk about that topic for a minute, or something like that. So the point of this is it's going to be quickfire, we're going to try and rattle through a fair few. And then until we get to you get bored, which we won't know. And, and then we'll wrap it up. So a bit of an experiment, hope you can come along the ride with us and see how we get on.

Ian Kingstone  16:04  
Cool lets go,

Jonathan Parnaby  16:05  
I'm reading what you want. First one is personal topic. 

Ian Kingstone  16:09  
Don't mind. 

Jonathan Parnaby  16:10  
Let's do our best is spin the wheel. Spin the wheel, right. So if you could choose any era to live in, what would it be?

Ian Kingstone  16:22  
Probably not 2020.

Jonathan Parnaby  16:29  
Nothing happened. That's why. Yeah, what era, what era.

Ian Kingstone  16:33  
Watch that the only one I can choose going back in time would probably be the 60s. Okay, yeah. And because I was born in the 70s. I don't think we could choose going forward because that would be a bit silly, because you can't really know when it's going to be like, it's gonna he's gonna choose a future that you feel. Yeah. And I don't want to go back too far cuz they weren't have been any TV. So I'm going, I'm going for the 60s, probably more for the music than the telly. But that probably for the music, Hendrix all those types of things.

Jonathan Parnaby  17:07  
Yeah, I'm two minds of this, like, part of me is thinking was obviously the 80s. Because, yeah, but then, I don't know, actually, you know, seeing the 80s through my adult eyes. Now, would it be? Would you be the, you know, would it ruin this the spectacle of nostalgia that I have for the 80s? Because it is nostalgia.

Ian Kingstone  17:29  
Go on is gonna say, well, you kind of what you've now made me think about pick the right one because I could have picked one that I was living in. But then I kind of backed myself up on that thought and thought, well, I lived those ones. So why would I want to go back to them? So why go back to the 80s? Jonathan pick a different one?

Jonathan Parnaby  17:44  
Yeah, but that's it. And the other mind is actually Victorian kind of London, like late 1800s. Yeah, I don't know. I've always been fascinated by that time period.

Ian Kingstone  17:56  
You wanted to be Oliver Twist in you.

Jonathan Parnaby  17:59  
Got it. You've got no just the you know, the clothes, the, you know, all the hats. And, you know, I bet maybe the things I diptherea or and stuff that were going on? Maybe not, but I don't know always like that. That era and

Ian Kingstone  18:16  
Industrial Age and all that stuff. Yeah, definitely.

Jonathan Parnaby  18:18  
Yeah, absolutely. Next one. So BTM2 off. It's gonna be digit spinning, Training Management, which is the column medicine and training preparation. I'm gonna answer this very quick. Go on, listen to season one. Our training kind of education episode, right? That that's the probably easiest thing to say on how on training preparation, because it's really all about understanding what you've got to train for what like understanding what kind of courses and materials and resources needs pulling together in order to fill the education that's required?

Ian Kingstone  18:59  
Yeah, I think you're right. All the training preparation as a training needs analysis, all that stuff. Is that what you mean? That that kind of way? It's all in that episode?

Jonathan Parnaby  19:09  
Yeah, exactly. So go find it. season one. Yeah, you're you're yo See, I think it's episode seven. This is testing me now and I'm gonna get this wrong. I think it's a good one. Check it out. It's all about training and education. Right. Going back to the topic. Do you prefer talking over the phone or face to face?

Ian Kingstone  19:28  
Face to face?

Jonathan Parnaby  19:29  
Face to face for me? Easy next? snap a few much more to say on that one is there. Okay, business transformation wise strategy - AS IS Data collection.

Ian Kingstone  19:41  
Oh, To AS IS or not to AS IS

Jonathan Parnaby  19:49  
what we saying go back to season two, Episode Four.

Ian Kingstone  19:52  
Yeah, I think that's the answer. Actually. You know where I am on this one.

Jonathan Parnaby  19:57  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You're saying don't bother? I'm saying it depends.

Ian Kingstone  20:02  
Yes. Yeah. circumstantial?

Jonathan Parnaby  20:07  
It is though, isn't it? Yes, it Yeah. Do it where you feel it's going to add value? Yeah, otherwise.

Ian Kingstone  20:13  
Spot on mister,

Jonathan Parnaby  20:16  
Value first guys, value first

Ian Kingstone  20:18  
Got in before me

Jonathan Parnaby  20:20  
I thought I get in before you? All right? Do you prefer to travel or stay close to home?

Ian Kingstone  20:28  
These days stay close to home. If you'd asked me in my 20s it would have been travelling. But I've done so many travelling

Jonathan Parnaby  20:35  
by if it's so let's say 2019 you still be prefer to be close to home?

Ian Kingstone  20:40  
Yeah, yeah, I was trying to do as much as I could from home to be honest with you. I like travelling Don't get me wrong, but I would prefer to stay close to home, please there.

Jonathan Parnaby  20:50  
I think I'm the opposite. I think I think I like to travel, I like to go and explore new places. I'm the kind of person that you know, and this is nothing wrong with this. By the way, there's people that love doing it. And it's absolutely fine. But people are going holiday and like to go back to the holiday in the same place. Right? You've got your your places, as we know, but I like to go and try different places. I'm kind of like that. That person is like, wonder if there's something better.

Ian Kingstone  21:18  
And I know Don't get me wrong, I like to try new places and go to different places. And maybe I took it in the work context, in my mind.

Jonathan Parnaby  21:26  
Oh you went down the work? Maybe?

Ian Kingstone  21:28  
Maybe I did. But that I've got there's a few places that I know. When I was in my 20s I want to go everywhere and be you know, world and everything. These days? I don't think I think that way I think, you know, I like to travel there's there's a few places I still haven't seen which I'd like to see. But they're not something that they're not on my bucket list where I've got a go there.

Jonathan Parnaby  21:51  
Yeah, 100% context. Stay close to home. Understand. I think I'm at that place now. Where? By Yeah. Do you want to go and spend a week in Edinburgh working, nothing wrong with Edinburgh?

Ian Kingstone  22:05  
I was gonna say,

Jonathan Parnaby  22:06  
I'm not having a go at Edinburgh. Beautiful if you can go there and have a look around and do for leisure. Fantastic. But I mean is gone works.

Ian Kingstone  22:15  
In another office?

Jonathan Parnaby  22:16  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sat on the M8 somewhere. Yeah. I've been there, done that.

Ian Kingstone  22:23  
I sent you there. I think 

Jonathan Parnaby  22:24  
You did. Moving on. business transformation topic is the category of business process management, but establish improvement process. So what do we think about this one? Yeah, business process management based stablish improvement process that this, this would be, if I'm taking this this correctly, this would be all about, you've done all of the pre work on looking at your processes, you looked at all the problem management that you know, the AS IS and TO BE and all that kind of stuff. And now you're establishing the the to be processes that are looking to eradicate the issues of your old world. And, and I suppose the governance around that suppose of implementing that process or establishing that process.

Ian Kingstone  23:16  
The first thing that comes to my mind is what we just talked about why you change the processes, unless you're either improving something, ie fixing a problem, or you're adding new value. So you're doing something new that you haven't done before. And that's more transformational to me. Whereas just improving some things change. Adding more value, new value is more transformational. So so I think adding attributes, that kind of thing, improvements and attributes to to is is is what I'd say about it's

Jonathan Parnaby  23:48  
about, for me, it's measurement as well. So if you're establishing that improvement of your process, then obviously you need to measure it'sabout the value, right? measure that it is actually improving.

Ian Kingstone  23:57  
Yeah, yeah, what

Jonathan Parnaby  23:58  
you wanted it to do, because on paper, it might look brilliant. But is it actually currently now 15% in efficiency that you thought it's going to do is actually going to eradicate the bottlenecks that you thought he was gonna do?

Ian Kingstone  24:09  
Yeah, yeah. does it solve the problems? You

Jonathan Parnaby  24:12  
solve the problem? Yeah. Cool flipping back then. Are you scared of dying? This is what Honestly, I'm not making this up. This is what the website is telling me.

Ian Kingstone  24:21  
Probably, because here's my logic on this one. I won't take risks where I know I'm gonna die.

Jonathan Parnaby  24:32  
Go on. Well, you know, you're gonna die.

Ian Kingstone  24:36  
Exactly. We think about the logic of what you do. You You don't you you, you know, I, I wouldn't take I wouldn't do something. Unless there's a gain for it. And if, you know, I wouldn't just do something for the hell of it. Well, then, let me take this further. And this might just explain something about me, which is what you want to find out anyway, I guess. Yeah. I wouldn't do bungee Jumping. Yeah. Okay. Because I don't see the point in it. Yeah. Is that Well, some people see the value in the adrenalin and all that kind of stuff for you. But for me, I wouldn't. So there's a risk, you could there's probably a low risk, but there's a risk that you could die doing that. So I kind of think, Well, why would I bother doing it?

Jonathan Parnaby  25:21  
Yeah, I wouldn't do it because I'm scared of heights. That's a different fear. But yeah, fair enough. No, I I am 100% categorically, that is my biggest phobia scared of dying. It's not It's not the method of which I will die. god is getting more but isn't it? Thank you. does lane, you know, 

Ian Kingstone  25:47  
these your chat lines Jonathan? 

Jonathan Parnaby  25:49  
This is all my my black book of chat up lines that never worked. But no, I am actually Ian. I've got a big fear of it. It's it's not the method. It's not how am I going to die? It's, it's the void afterwards. And this goes into belief systems, it gets quite deep this but but it's, yeah, this the thought that one day, you're just not going to be here.  And that makes me go? Oh, I don't like yet. You know, don't like it.

Ian Kingstone  26:18  
We won't know about it. Well, you know, I

Jonathan Parnaby  26:20  
suppose that's the comfort. But it's, it's the stupid thing of thinking about it wasting time and energy thinking about something you cannot possibly avoid it's just illogical,

Ian Kingstone  26:30  
or linear look, yeah, but you can control it to a degree, which was my point? Well, you might not be able to control it if you've got some fatal illness or Yeah, whatever. But but but my point is that you can manage an element of risk around that kind of use. Yeah. Right. Let's

Jonathan Parnaby  26:49  
spin on. So that's a business transformation. So strategy category, analysis of needs and maturity level.

Ian Kingstone  27:00  
Right? Well, that's quite interesting. Yeah. Because from a transformation strategy point of view, this is a key one for me that a lot of people don't do. So I'd say, let's call it transformation capability. Yeah. So you're trying to whatever your transformation is, let's say you're going to pivot the organisation or you're doing an IT type, enable transformation, or, or whatever. So many programmes are started without looking at the capabilities, they need to change the organisation or transform the organisation. So it's looking at, you might have a change management capability. But the maturity might not be high enough for the scale and amount of, you know, transformation you're doing or it might be adequate. And that's why I see that is is looking at, what's the maturity level of your transformation capabilities, even if you if you know what they are, which a lot of organisations don't? And, and then is it at the right maturity level, it's like giving someone who's managed a project to I don't know, a small project, a very simple project, giving them a complex global transformation to manage because they can do project manager, it's a different maturity level. Not saying they can't do it, but it's about analysing it and understanding it.

Jonathan Parnaby  28:17  
Yeah. And he takes takes the aspects of BTM2, doesn't it so life strategy management, value management, risk, process, transformation, it changed training, and programme project management and the kind of assesses the organisation on

Ian Kingstone  28:33  
Yeah, look at those disciplines that you need to successfully transform, which is the idea. Yeah, yeah. Perfect.

Jonathan Parnaby  28:44  
Okay, what was your least favourite subject in school? English? And why? English? Why?

Ian Kingstone  28:53  
Because I just didn't. I didn't like reading books, which probably explains a lot of things. If if there was a film out on it, then I'd have watched it. And yeah, it just didn't, I just didn't get anything out of it. didn't, didn't, didn't enjoy it. I think I was in a lower set for it. So I kind of, you know, I just wasn't my thing.

Jonathan Parnaby  29:18  
Yeah, mine's history. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And I weirdly cuz I like to go back to the 1800s. Right. But it's, it's I think there's more. I did history, because a good friend of mine, did it. Right, not really thinking about it. To be honest, I wish I'd done geography because I actually find that more interesting. But now I did history and I was the choice between the two that I had at my secondary school. And I just realised that I didn't really like just lots of dates to remember lots of things. You know, don't get me wrong. I think as I've got older, I actually find history more enjoyable.

Ian Kingstone  29:59  
Since then. They created horrible histories. Yeah,

Jonathan Parnaby  30:02  
yeah, that's brilliant. Yes. It's so entertaining to to learn and have a bit of a laugh when it's like watching Monty Python all over again. Yeah. I love that programme. But yeah, I don't know I just find it quite dry and maybe it's like any subject right there's it depends on the teacher. Depends on how it's brought to life. There you go. I was gonna say PE

Ian Kingstone  30:24  

Jonathan Parnaby  30:25  
yeah best because I just because I hate I hate football. Right. So sorry. Again, not a big fan of football and I used to hate playing it in the winter outside just hate it. This is the worst sport I'm rubbish at. And it's become light football is a social status thing at secondary school. Right? There's just the pecking order. And unfortunately, I was in the old football pecking order. No one everyone is pick me because I was rubbish. And I never never had an interest in it, to be honest. So and then they started doing basketball. And I went Yeah, I'm in for that. One because it's indoors. And it don't mind basketball. That's why I didn't say PE first, because actually the elements of PE I really enjoy. Not that I call it PE anymore now I'm 40.

Ian Kingstone  31:15  

Jonathan Parnaby  31:18  
Like game? Okay, organisational change management, performance management business. Okay, so this aspects of BTM2 is really about how you're going to measure how well the business organisation is adopting your change. That's really what this this capability is about. We obviously talked about change a lot. Season One, go and pick the episodes our back catalogue and library. But But essentially, you need to have a way of of getting that feedback from the business to say the business is on tracks on board. It's it's doing what it needs to do in order to prepare for the upcoming change or if it's not, we've got that feedback loop mechanism to course correct and support the business if needed. Right. So that's really well that capability or that aspect of BTM squared is about for my view. Anything so I didn't

Ian Kingstone  32:11  
know now I was gonna say in change readiness, but that's another one in itself. That's not that one. Yeah.

Ian Kingstone  32:17  

Jonathan Parnaby  32:18  
What did you do on your most recent birthday?

Ian Kingstone  32:22  
Well, mine was in COVID. One that I think I had a barbecue

Jonathan Parnaby  32:31  
think you did wasn't that long ago

Ian Kingstone  32:33  
You know, it wasn't and I got a fire pit stroke barbecue from a birthday. So that's what I did. That's about it really?

Jonathan Parnaby  32:44  
Yeah, mine was my fourth year ago. I mentioned the bad Sarah Sarah on our first formal episode of the season. So like you COVID. But we did manage to get away. for the weekend. We had a weekend and cottage place in Devon, in the English Riviera. More than less. So that's quite nice. Yeah, that's quite good. And I had 40 presents, or even 14 is right. Yeah.

Ian Kingstone  33:11  
Now Scott was good. That's good idea like that.

Jonathan Parnaby  33:14  
Lots of little things, lots of cool things. And actually, one of them is coming up actually this weekend. Which is I get to drive an Aston Martin round racetrack. Oh, cool laps, and then I get a lap in an Arial Atom. So I'm very excited about because let's face it, I'm not, I'm probably going to drive the Aston Martin around the track in the slowest speed possible. So yeah. But the area that I'm on, I'm a passenger, so they're just gonna hoof it around? I'm probably gonna be scared.

Ian Kingstone  33:44  
for a weekend. Yeah, Saturday, so I want to hear about that. And then next,

Jonathan Parnaby  33:49  
you will say like, oh my god I've crashed an Aston Martin. But there we go. We have transformational IT management solution architecture design.

Ian Kingstone  34:01  
I mean, this one comes up quite a bit, doesn't it? I mean, in the projects and programmes we worked in which majority have been underpinned by technology. It's really that whole solution. What I see nowadays, more than anything is a mixture of different solutions, creating the architecture of the design that you want, which offers loads of challenges, like integration and some things in the clouds and things not in the cloud, or that technical kind of stuff, which I think is really, really important. Yeah. But But sometimes, and I suppose the other thing is to think about how you plan your transformation to make that architecture easier. So plan your architectural design with your plan to try and make it easier. Yeah, at the same time. Ben's what's driving the value, doesn't it?

Jonathan Parnaby  34:50  
Yeah. 100% and like you go to some organisations and especially the older ones, and where they are mature in their solutions architecture or enterprise architecture, discipline, then there'll be able to produce these big. What can be complicated looking maps of this is all of our landscape of technology. This is how it all talks to each other. That's that's on a more mature end and then obviously on the other end is, what are you talking about? What is the what is solution architecture. But yet again to that design piece, you know, some some organisations have spaghetti web of, of, you know, bits and bobs connected, and like you say, you've got to design around those things, you got to understand it. And yeah,

Ian Kingstone  35:35  
the big ones though, like he just said, we'll have a massive spaghetti of it. And the biggest challenge I found with some of the bigger organisations, if you want is managing that architecture through transition. So showing what the architecture looks like at this point, and then you deliver something else or maybe decommissioned something else? And was it not like at that point, because on some of the bigger transformations, you're gonna have several points with a mixture of architecture. And you're gonna have, so that whole design pieces you might have future state. And as this design, need, you need the transitions in between to manage that.

Jonathan Parnaby  36:17  
Yeah, there you go.  Here is a future thinking one Ian? What do you think your life will look like in 10 years,

Ian Kingstone  36:24  
I'll be retired. But dipping my toe in every so often when I want to do something a bit more interesting. I'll be mixing between being in a nice, like, Sunny climate, and then kind of coming home and seeing family and kids and grandkids and stuff like that. Who knows, though? No. Yeah. And other than that, hopefully, it won't be drastically too different. To be fair.

Jonathan Parnaby  36:57  
Yeah. Yeah, I'll just I'll just thinking, as I read the question out to you, my own brain was like, What do I Where do I want to be in 10 years? Obviously, season 56 of the Beer & Butterfly. But now I honestly don't know, I think like you, I don't think it's going to be radically different for me. But obviously, kids are going to be a lot older. One of them will be pretty much going down the either union route or work route. If not already, and actually in 10 years, that's just me and my maths getting wrong. And then the other one is going to be pretty much leaving secondary school. That scares me. But workwise Yeah, probably just doing the same. Like, it's hard for me to plan, what 10 years looks like? Because actually, you know, I don't know, sometimes what clients I'll be working with for six months time, let alone 10 years time. But I'd be very happy continuing my consultancy business, in that time doing all the cool work that I've been doing for different clients. So yeah, probably if it's a boring answer, but it's, well, I

Ian Kingstone  38:06  
thought mine was boring. But I mean, I did like semi semi semi retired and all that. But But uh, uh, yeah, I don't see it any other way. I mean, unless I had some extravagant goal which are down.

Jonathan Parnaby  38:23  
I'm the same I don't like on as I want to have a want to grow my consultancy business and have like, 10 employees and do this, and I'm quite happy with the lifestyle that I'm in currently, I suppose what I would add is, is kind of expand. Kind of like a holiday home kind of thing. I think that that's something I wouldn't mind getting, and achieving and doing Yeah.

Ian Kingstone  38:49  
I'm already there on that one?

Jonathan Parnaby  38:50  
I know your baby on that one.

Ian Kingstone  38:52  
Yeah, I can't go to it at the moment and haven't been for a long whilse, but there you go.

Jonathan Parnaby  38:56  
You're quite worried worried about

Ian Kingstone  39:01  
what's happened to happen, you know?

Jonathan Parnaby  39:04  
Very, very, very true. Right? onto the last business transformation topic that from BTM2 squared. So we have as the wheels stop spinning our course we're gonna finish on value management course. Execute benefit realisation. What's this all about Ian?

Ian Kingstone  39:23  
Well, this is quite funny because not many people actually do this. They set about going after all this value and write their business cases but they don't actually execute and see the actually measure the benefits and realise them and if they don't realise them, then do something about what they've got to do to realise them. So which is the point on not just getting your benefits and value but actually understanding whether you're hitting it or not and why. So, yeah,

Jonathan Parnaby  39:57  
I'm not gonna say anything cuz We've talked about this and we are you first kind of episode? In Episode Two? Right? We went into a lot of detail on on this yet cool. I think that wraps it up, I think we thought we'd try something a bit different. It's a bit random. Hopefully you got to learn. I'm absolutely scared of dying. And and is kind of okay with it, as long as he doesn't take massive risks anyway. So yeah, it was quite good to do something like that where we haven't, you know, kind of planned it to my son. And we thought we'd just trying to bring to life a little bit of BTM2. And I know you're doing it in this way probably hasn't brought it to life. But hopefully it kind of, if you haven't heard of BTM2, check it out, you know,

Ian Kingstone  40:49  
give us a question or ask us to let us know, give us some feedback. If you want us to do it in more detail. Give us some feedback.

Jonathan Parnaby  40:57  
Absolutely. So yeah, let's let's wrap that up. And thank you for that that transformation, speed dating. We'll see if we want to do it again. We'll see. But no. And until next time, no questions today. Right. So we're going to leave that until next week. But please, if you do have questions, send them in record them, just like Debbie did the other week. We'd love to get more of those start shaping some of our content for the future episodes. So yeah, please, please get those do.

Ian Kingstone  41:29  
And don't forget, if you want to record it, record it. And

Jonathan Parnaby  41:33  
yeah, we don't mind. We can we can deal with it. Don't worry about quality. Don't worry about any of that. Just get it down. Send it over and then yeah, we'll get it in.

Ian Kingstone  41:41  
So it must be must be time for a quiz question then after all of that.

Jonathan Parnaby  41:45  
Absolutely. Absolutely. How can we forget our pubquiz? We got to continue and carry the torch forward. So I've got a question prepared this time in. Well, it's not the film one. All right. Let's face it. I'm biassed, biassed towards films. I hope you were Quentin Tarantino fan for you and out there. If not, then I apologise. But what is the name of the bride? Is the character played by Uma Thurman in Quentin Tarantino's Kill Bill franchise? If you've ever seen the film, and the beginning, her name is always bleeped out. But if you watched Volume Two, I think her name is revealed.

Ian Kingstone  42:32  
I don't know the answer to that. I think I should know the answer to that, because I've watched those films quite a few times. Okay. But I can't think of it. And when I hear it, I'll know it. I know. I'll know it.

Jonathan Parnaby  42:47  
I'll be the same. I think if he you know if you'd asked me It caught me on the hop. I think I would be probably kicking myself. Yeah.

Ian Kingstone  42:58  
Yeah, I think I will be as well. But it does. It's not working right now.

Jonathan Parnaby  43:03  
Not it's not working, not firing on all cylinders. But now hopefully listeners you see Kill Bill? Well, if you haven't, then just guess, you know?

Ian Kingstone  43:13  
How many names could there be?

Jonathan Parnaby  43:16  
Surely. But the answer does say first and second name. So that makes that makes it trickier. I'll say first I'll take first name. There we go. What's the name of the bride? Hopefully you get the answer. And if not listening to next week, and we'll give you give you the answer. Tune in. Tune in. See you later. Good. Okay. Well, thank you everybody for your time and bearing with us on this very unplanned, strange episode. We'll we'll be back next week for some more transformation chat. So Catch you later. 

Jonathan Parnaby  43:53  
If you want to record a question for next time. Just you know, just we call that questions and it's our hosts beer and butterfly. co. uk because we love to get people's voices on this podcast right here.

Ian Kingstone  44:05  
Yeah, now it's great. Sounds good.

Jonathan Parnaby  44:07  
Great, see you next time. 

Jonathan Parnaby  44:09  
It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the Beer & Butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation. 

Ian Kingstone  44:16  
You can get more details of the episodes on our website, which is That's

Jonathan Parnaby  44:29  
You can get in touch with the show by emailing us on, send us your questions written or recorded. Or come and join us at the table as a guest.

Ian Kingstone  44:40  
Also check out our LinkedIn page, Beer & Butterfly Podcast and on Twitter @butterfly_beer, where you can engage with the show directly and get involved.

Jonathan Parnaby  44:53  
Yeah, we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.

We are half way there
Pub quiz - Question 6 Answer
What have we been up to?
Transformation speed dating
Spin the wheel
Pub quiz - Question 7
Last orders