Beer & Butterfly

Season 2 - Episode 9: Negotiating Change...with Simon Woodhouse

August 11, 2021 Ian Kingstone & Jonathan (JP) Parnaby Season 2 Episode 9
Beer & Butterfly
Season 2 - Episode 9: Negotiating Change...with Simon Woodhouse
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

As Ian & JP catch-up this week their next guest is just "passing by the pub" and decides to join them to talk all around behavioural change and mindsets when it comes to transformation.  Ian is still excited about going to Wimbledon tickets and finally has a plan for his aluminium gates but generally working more than having fun.  JP finally remembers that he went away for his wedding anniversary weekend when usually it's forgetting the date upfront and looking forward to his re-booked camping trip, updates on Loki and talks vampires in What We Do In The Shadows.  Simon reminds us of an important football tournament that's happening (Euros 2020 which was delayed due to COVID).  Simon then leads the episode and as a group we explore various facets of behavioural change, mirroring, aligning mindsets and change account management.

  • 00:00 - Intro
  • 01:12 - Introducing our guest...Simon Woodhouse
  • 03:35 - Pub quiz - Question 9 Answer
  • 05:27 - What have we been up to?
  • 15:20 - Football & Business behavioural change
  • 20:30 - Culture, mirroring & negotiating
  • 24:13 - Behavioural change stairway model
  • 27:18 - Aligning and shifting mindsets
  • 34:32 - Measure and sustaining the change
  • 38:20 - Change account management
  • 42:53 - Change happens when it's fair
  • 51:13 - Talking points through rich pictures
  • 58:15 - Raising the bar through inviting people to change
  • 01:02:48 - Pub quiz - Question 10
  • 01:04:51 - Thanking Simon
  • 01:05:07 - Question time
  • 01:10:56 - Last orders

Ian Kingstone  0:00  
Well, what you having then Jonathan, 

Jonathan Parnaby  0:05  
A pint please mate 

Ian Kingstone  0:06  
two pints, please landlord

Jonathan Parnaby  0:08  
So Ian. Where's our audience sitting

Ian Kingstone  0:10  
there over there? sat at that table over there? 

Jonathan Parnaby  0:13  
Oh, yeah, I can see them. Okay, well, before we go over there, what we're going to tell them,

Ian Kingstone  0:18  
we're just gonna tell them it's a relaxed environment where we can discuss, you know, all stuff around business transformation.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:23  
Okay, cool. So who's actually over there who what we got

Ian Kingstone  0:27  
some executives, some professionals, a few consultants.

Jonathan Parnaby  0:33  
Cool, fantastic. Well, let's crack on lets get over there

Ian Kingstone  0:35  
Welcome to the Beer & Butterfly

Jonathan Parnaby  0:37  
a podcast where we talk transformation.

Ian Kingstone  1:03  
I'm Ian Kingstone. 

Jonathan Parnaby  1:05  
And I'm Jonathan Parnaby.

Ian Kingstone  1:06  
And we're your hosts. 

Ian Kingstone  1:08  
So in today's episode, we're going to understand behavioural change. 

Ian Kingstone  1:12  
So we're back we're back again. We're doing well. This this this season. We seem to we seem to be having guests all the time. And we've got another guest today.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:21  
Yeah, we're not on our own. It's I think we've had more episodes with guests than we have without which is amazing. So yes. Welcome. Yeah, going introduce him he's sat in the corner.

Ian Kingstone  1:35  
It's Simon, introduce yourself.

Simon Woodhouse  1:37  
Hello, guys. I was just passing the pub, I was just wondering, it was gonna be in both. Thanks for inviting me. And my name is Simon Woodhouse, Business Change Manager, and a Communications guy as well been doing that for what best part of 15 years now. last few years, I've developed a real interest in in human nature as a result of sort of self development journey I've been on to better understand myself. And that's led me to, I think, have a better insight into business change management and the human element of it and how we relate to others from knowing ourselves better. That's led on to more and more interest areas in organisational change and behavioural change, which is the subject of today. So what I'm hoping to do is have a chat with you guys. Have a laugh, see where we go and just see if I can bring in some some of the learnings that I that I've experienced to try and try and aid people's understanding.

Jonathan Parnaby  2:35  
Yeah, brilliant. Well, always great. Great to have you here Simon, thank you for walking past the pier. And because I right time, on the right evening, and join us for a pint because it's 

Simon Woodhouse  2:46  
I saw the flyer outside 

Jonathan Parnaby  2:47  
Oh did you good good, the marketing budgets working. Yeah. But no, it's brilliant to revisit for me. It's brilliant to revisit the change management conversation because our listeners, they know that I've been harping on about change management, probably in every episode.  So just like Ian harps on about value, which, of course, I know, is important, but it's good to kind of revisit, but I think what what I'm really excited about this conversation coming up is your I wouldn't say it's a unique spin, but it's your as you said, Your take on the the human psychology side of it. And I think that's just an in really interesting topic. So yeah, I can't wait to get started. But But I think before we do, we've got a few things to cover right Ian, a few things to get through.

Ian Kingstone  3:35  
Yeah, I want to know the answer from last week's quiz. Question was no.

Jonathan Parnaby  3:42  
So Simon, just let you know, obviously we do a pop quiz every week. And I'm sure you've been following along and if not, why not? Because it's the pub quiz of the century. are putting it there first. But the question that we asked in last week's episode with our other guests there, Rob Llewellyn was how many chukkas are there in a polo match? And no one got this answer. Because I think the first question was, what's a chukka? Yeah, that wasn't been my initial response. Yeah, I think it would have been mine If I hadn't looked the question and answer but essentially a chukka is like a period of time in a match. So it's a bit like a quarter or half, but I think they last about seven minutes long. And to be honest, 

Ian Kingstone  4:33  
You've been doing your Polo research. 

Jonathan Parnaby  4:35  
I mean, I've gone on Wikipedia, and had a look

Ian Kingstone  4:41  
no, I thought you've been out there, you know?

Jonathan Parnaby  4:43  
No, no, I'm got a clue. I think he's saved. You asked me the question. I wouldn't want known but I think it depends as well on what type of Polo match it is. But the answer I've got is six. There are six chukkas. And any Polo enthusiasts out there, I'm sure we'll go no, there isn't. There's 8 or there is 4 depending on certain roles, and I don't know whether it's a bit like, you know, rugby league and rugby union and it's all a bit, you know, similar but different. But yeah, six, six chukkas in a polo match. There you go. That's one for the memory bank.

Ian Kingstone  5:15  
We've learned something. Really. Finally on the podcast, we've taught something we we've learned what a checker is. Yeah. I feel enriched. Thank you.

Jonathan Parnaby  5:26  
So yeah, but anyway, but what we've been up to, gents, what's what's what's new. I'm gonna go to you Ian,

Ian Kingstone  5:33  
I knew you were coming to me straight away? And

Jonathan Parnaby  5:37  
what about myself? You say, That's why I still,

Ian Kingstone  5:40  
I can tell you why I haven't been up to for starters I still haven't put me gates up. But that's gonna happen this weekend.

Jonathan Parnaby  5:46  
You've until the retro we've told you

Ian Kingstone  5:49  
that, hey, next episode, you're gonna hear about the gates. And I haven't been surfing. I haven't been out on my bike much because I've been working too much. And what else haven't I've been doing? I've got I think I mentioned this previously, but I've got tickets for Wimbledon. So yeah, it's gonna go there. So again, that'll be a story for another time. So really not much to add Really? Yeah, I can't think of what I've been doing other than working Jonathan.

Jonathan Parnaby  6:21  
Yeah, it's been a bit like that with me. It's all working. Well, I've had a good one I've forgot what I did this weekend, which is really bad because it was my 10th wedding anniversary weekend. So usually you forget before that, you know, not straight afterwards. But yeah, yeah. So we went away to Dartmouth for the weekend. Oh, cool. And yeah, stayed away without the kids kind of did though. You know, spa thing and when in the pool chilled out, ate lots of food, you know, general channel kind of wedding anniversary things. So it's been a very, very relaxing weekend. To be fair, and this weekend, where if you remember a few weeks ago, I was supposed to go camping. And and we had those wind weather warnings.

Ian Kingstone  7:12  
Yeah, we're all in this we're blowing away and things like that.

Jonathan Parnaby  7:16  
Yeah. So we are rebooked. We rebook the camping trip to this weekend coming up. So and again, looking at the weather. It looks awful, so no standard. It's only rain. I think we can cope with that. And the kids. I don't think I could just tell the kids we're not doing it again. I think they were really disappointed. But yeah, not really watched much films. I'm still watching Loki. And he thought,

Ian Kingstone  7:42  
oh my god, i've caught up on low key but not today's.

Jonathan Parnaby  7:46  

Ian Kingstone  7:46  
I have done something they call up. I call out Yeah, we're in the same place which is cool. Yeah, I'm really really really enjoying it.

Simon Woodhouse  7:57  
What's Loki

Jonathan Parnaby  7:58  
Yeah. Loki said Marvel. Do you ever watch any of the Marvel films Simon?

Simon Woodhouse  8:03  
No, same knowledge as Polo unfortunately.

Jonathan Parnaby  8:11  
We're like kids so we we kind of just really enjoy that kind of popcorn action flick that you don't really have to think too much. And and yeah, the kid kids all enjoy it and odd odd. tell a lie. I think I enjoy it more than the kids do.

Ian Kingstone  8:26  
I certainly do. I think it's me who who bring us it on in our house and kind of says, oh, let's watch this. And let's watch that. And I'm just yeah,

Jonathan Parnaby  8:35  
I'll tell you what. I have watched. It's not particularly new. It's a couple years old. But What We Do In The Shadows.

Ian Kingstone  8:44  
I've heard about this. Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  8:46  
You heard about this Simon, about the vampires. 

Simon Woodhouse  8:48  
I haven't mate now

Jonathan Parnaby  8:49  
Yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of set. It's like a mockumentary. So getting like the office kind of style and the way it's filmed. But it's set around these these three vampires sharing this residence in Staten Island, and they kind of emigrated over to Staten Island from from Europe, obviously terrorising Europe over the, you know, kind of the olden days. And they've gone over to Staten Island and they've they supposed to kind of lead dominion over the new world and they've just got really lazy and just they're just rubbish but it's really funny. And you've got Matt Berry, he plays he is just, you know, he's just plays himself. I'm sure he does be he's fantastic in there. And it's just really stupid, but I've been really enjoying it but it's based off a film above the same name, which is done by God. He was at Taika Waititi who do actually directed a Thor Ragnarok and

Ian Kingstone  9:50  
I might be my kind of film,

Jonathan Parnaby  9:52  
but I think it is that kind of humour. So he's quite zany and strange, but yeah, I'd recommend that. If you are okay. That's it.

Ian Kingstone  9:59  
That's another one from the list. Yeah, ridiculous. But it's funny. Many rainy days we have over here. Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  10:06  
Anyway, Simon, enough about us What? What have you been doing?

Simon Woodhouse  10:10  
Well, and it's extremely boring in comparison, everything. There was a big sporting event last night wasn't there. I watched a bit of that.

Jonathan Parnaby  10:19  
What was that?

Simon Woodhouse  10:22  
There was there was a polo match. 

Jonathan Parnaby  10:26  
How many chukkas were there

Simon Woodhouse  10:29  
8 it was a different Yeah. Yeah, yeah. England, England sort of pulled out a top draw result. And

Ian Kingstone  10:38  
I did. I was I was well, I was probably like everybody else to be honest with you. kind of sat there waiting to wonder whether we're actually gonna manage it or not. Okay, too excited. But then, you know, you know, it's like, so yeah it's good

Jonathan Parnaby  10:57  
says, Here we go next. Ukraine. Right, isn't it? Yeah, okay.

Simon Woodhouse  11:04  
Yeah, yeah, we'll clean him Rome for some reason.

Jonathan Parnaby  11:08  
No, okay. Do to anyone? Ukraine. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Woodhouse  11:18  
Oh, yeah. Then Then semi final beckons. I mean, don't want to get ahead of ourselves. But

Ian Kingstone  11:23  
now I'm not going to jinx anything. I'm just gonna stay real, you know, not not say anything. Yeah, just really enjoyed last night.

Simon Woodhouse  11:33  
Really, really impressed with the team and the manager, how we set them up, sent them out there. And they played to win the game rather than played the best football?

Ian Kingstone  11:42  
I thought they were quite calm. Yeah. Very much. I wouldn't have been that calm in that situation, but it's probably why I'm not a footballer in the in the you know, anywhere.

Simon Woodhouse  11:57  
Yeah, well, that yeah, that's what people are saying about Southgate. He creates this environment within the camp that people can be themselves and which gets people to he wants people to express themselves feel comfortable. So presumably, that's our team goes out and plays

Simon Woodhouse  12:13  
must be a change story in there somewhere. So it's gonna get onto that. I thought it was a bit too cheesy. I'll let you come in there.

Jonathan Parnaby  12:21  
You can reference back now Ian's made the segue so

Ian Kingstone  12:25  
yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was I was really impressed with it. We'll see what happens in the next one. Because gonna get more harder, isn't it in the sense of the nerves, and the further you get into it, then, the more you've got to lose, so to speak.

Jonathan Parnaby  12:43  
Yeah. And we know, I don't particularly follow football anyway. But I think we're tournament's like the Euro's and the World Cup. I I keep a watchful eye and and as as the excitement mounts as we get, ideally get closer and closer, then I think, I think I'll watch this match. So yeah it's get is getting to that stage. Now. I think where anything could happen.

Simon Woodhouse  13:08  
Yeah, I'm gonna take off Ian's mantle for a behavioural change angle on this, I think, you know, England have got to develop. I think we've got this mentality in tournament's everybody expects us to sort of play out a certain way, certainly against the Germans and be and be sort of heroic losers. Yeah. How can we turn that into gracious winners? And really, because it's not, it won't be like us to really flaunt it, you know, because we'll never believe it, will we, you know, we kind of like, so how can we be gracious, humble winners and win? Like, you know, we'd like your suppose to, you know, yeah, without arrogance, and what have you. That's, that's the fit in our nation. And I think that's, that's a mindset shift and a behavioural change. And I think that's what he's doing within the camp. You go, do you want cheese with that.

Jonathan Parnaby  14:00  
It's so tru? It's so true. Isn't it? Amazing? how, you know, the norms in inverted air quotes. Yeah, can kind of just kind of steer at your behaviours, because that's the way we've always thought. That's the way we're always going to think in the future. So yeah, in using that analogy, and that example is quite good, isn't it? Because it's so true.

Simon Woodhouse  14:26  
I think so. Yeah. And it's an example of what Southgate's doing from the inside. He's some some of the commentators and pundits were talking about him living in a bubble, and not being influenced by the press, and all of these other factors is like, No, he's gonna do it his way. Create his culture. And the outcome will speak for itself good or bad, you know?

Jonathan Parnaby  14:47  

Simon Woodhouse  14:47  
So you know, there's a change metaphor right there.

Jonathan Parnaby  14:51  
Yeah. He's not sticking to the same old template. Yeah.

Ian Kingstone  14:57  
Is it change or is it transformation? Oh, 

Simon Woodhouse  15:01  
He's adding value isn't he

Jonathan Parnaby  15:04  
You should come on more often Simon sorry, you know, you might try replace him.

Simon Woodhouse  15:12  
Got it out of the system now. 

Jonathan Parnaby  15:15  
I was just gonna say let's, let's let's move into the, the main topics then. So Simon I mean, we got the keys, the pub, metaphorically speaking and then over to yourself, you know, go easy on the drinks and the crisps but but yeah, let's Where do you want to start with this this great and exciting topic

Simon Woodhouse  15:38  
we thought we'd have a general discussion, see and see how that went what direction it took us in. And I think the idea is that the discussion would illustrate some of the some of the theories that we wanted to get across or some of the practices and we could take the football analogy, and you know, what Southgate is doing and how he's how he's instilling behavioural change in a bunch of people. You could argue that a very young players who haven't a lot of them, they have an experienced so the cultural norms of the past, you know, from a change metaphor perspective, you know, do you want to get a group of believers in an organisation who were not sort of entrenched in the prevailing culture, you know, bunch a bunch of graduates who grew up on chip artless sounds, sounds a bit cliched, isn't it. And

Ian Kingstone  16:28  
I was just I was just about to say that's the trouble with that is that isn't it that if you took the analogy of a football team, that's not true, what you usually find in business, because you have a mixture of different experiences and different not to be ageist. But you'd have different ages and different groups of people. I think, I suppose you do have quite a lot of diversity in football. But you know it from an age point of view and experience people set in their ways. In a modern football team. I don't know whether you find that maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. But that, would that set in a certain way of doing things? I don't know,

Jonathan Parnaby  17:12  
I wouldn't know enough i'm not a massive footba.

Simon Woodhouse  17:18  
I think if you look at the background in the sort of, there is the diversity there. But there is certainly a prevailing culture in this country of being plucky loses valiant loses, you know, do we have the same ruthless streak as all the other nations who embody it in their, you know, in their ethos as a country? I don't I don't know. I think, you know, again, it's sort of cultural stereotype. And but, you know, you could get South Americans who are sort of this is the euros we're talking about, but in a World Cup situation, South Americans who were a bit more sort of Street Fighter, you know, they they win in a way that means a lot to their culture. We're a touch more naive, because we, we toe the line of fair play, don't we? Yeah. So you know, from a sporting analogy, I think you would have that cultural diversity and that rating range of ages, but people are still bought up in the in the country with our our sense of fair play. And that's how we go about doing things. To add to that, to give us that sort of Winning Edge, you know, still within those parameters of fair play is, is the thing that South gates seems to be hating on? Well, he found it, he's found a pragmatic way of playing.

Ian Kingstone  18:33  
So just to kind of move away a little bit away from football on that, take that kind of conversation. I don't think that's the case in business. I'm bringing it back to business. Because if that's the one, oh, you know, why now, I guess. But but but I don't know whether maybe I'm being unfair on ourselves here a bit, but I don't know, whether we're, we deal with kind of fair play in business. Certainly some of the transformation programmes I've felt that way. But But, um, you know, but you're not, I mean, from a purse from a, from a people change type, kind of journey, if you want, I just look at it as you're building a vision and a way forward, and why you need to change and all of these things around value kind of, and quite often not just value benefits money, not just value in general, but that the business needs to change because it needs to compete, or it needs to, you know, maintain its competitiveness and do all these different changes. And, and do you think we're too fair in that then?

Ian Kingstone  19:39  

Ian Kingstone  19:40  
that tells me we're not bold enough with how we transform and do things like that. I'm gonna kind of go slightly off topic, but that,

Jonathan Parnaby  19:48  
you know, that just different that, you know, you're comparing kind of our country's culture, in a sporting environment and then passing that into a business and organisation. We're actually you know, I know that if you compared, you know, 15 organisations across the UK, you're gonna get a hodgepodge of different cultures.

Ian Kingstone  20:10  
I was gonna say, and that's not Yeah, it's not true to to any, most organisations these days.

Jonathan Parnaby  20:16  
Some are bold, some are risk takers, some and some red tape. You know, there's, there's just a mix of things. And the thing that's quite good, good discussion point is isn't always around culture in general, what is culture? What makes up culture as the, you know, the people is that history baggage, like, there's so many things that are in that culture and of culture in any organisation, right? And over time that gets swirled around, you know, yes, yes into something, which,

Ian Kingstone  20:51  
but it's that again, and then coming back to change, if you want a behavioural change, don't you? Don't you think that? Well, I can take experience from the paper industry? I've done transformation a few a couple of times. And and, you know, you'll have people in a paper mill, whose father work their grandfather worked. Yeah, they're that type of Not, not everybody clearly. And but but, but it's a traditional paper making Scottish traditional business and then a very modern these days, a lot of technology and paper making these days. amazing amount of country. But But, you know, that kind of, would you say that culture for that is built up around those individuals? Because I think it is, I think the culture of that organisation at that time is the people that are in it, and their behaviours and how they act and what they do. And they've learned those. Yeah. And that's probably why it's quite difficult when, when we're waltzing up and saying, right, we need to change and do it this way now.

Simon Woodhouse  21:58  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they always say that people mirror the bosses down there, whoever your boss is, you tend to mirror them. And that's an evolutionary trait as well, that was a survival thing. You know, we, we mirror other people, because we were from villages, we are villages as a,

Ian Kingstone  22:15  
as a as an island in a village.

Simon Woodhouse  22:20  
So when we're hardwired to get along with others a mirror in is part of that behavioural stuff. So yeah, the culture there, I think culture was wants to I heard it described as it's what happens when managers leave the room.

Jonathan Parnaby  22:36  
Yeah, like that.

Simon Woodhouse  22:37  
So therefore, management can't influence culture. It's people predominantly in organisations who decide what their behaviours are going to be based on individual decisions that are influenced by the group. You know, that that's, that's a, that's a theory. But I think what you're saying is correct as well, where, where it comes from the top down, and I've seen it I've been in organisations, which have been very dominated by personalities. And you can see that at the working level as well. So culture is one of those things that seems sort of, we all recognise it when we go into an organisation, but we can't define it, as it originated here, or because of this reason, or that is just something that I think the longer it goes on challenged, or then then people repeat behaviour, getting back to behaviour change, people repeat behaviour, because it's a habit, then, that's the way we do things. And the longer you do things a certain way, the more you can't get out of that habit of doing it that way.

Ian Kingstone  23:41  

Simon Woodhouse  23:42  
so if you want behavioural change, which is what organisational change is, it's the change of behaviours, you have to have this disruption or interruption and make it easy for people to adopt a new way of working but then go through a period of negotiation with them interested fully to reach that position where they go, Okay, now I'm prepared to start adopting these new ways of working and, and something that that I've seen and really sort of believe in is this behavioural change stairway model, which we just spoke about previously, he and and this, this is really around negotiation, it was something the FBI developed. And so if you're, if you're speaking to one person or a group of people, they all come with what we were saying before we started recording, which is three things perception, expectations, and previous experience. And all of that goes into the part in a group of people in order to get them to change their behaviour. First of all, you've got to listen to them and demonstrate the listening to them. So you show an understanding and that creates empathy, which is the second stage so active listening first stage, which people have About, you try and get to the stage and these are all sequential and build on each other, get get get to empathy stage where you're displaying an understanding of a person. And then, and then you have a report where they show you that, essentially, they understand your position and get an acknowledge that you understand that that's what you're trying to get to. Yeah, there's nothing worse than females, both

Ian Kingstone  25:24  
sets of trust, then isn't it is at work. That's it, that that that final stage develops that, well, they understand me, I understand them. So there's got to be an element of trust, then come into

Simon Woodhouse  25:35  
play. That's the outcome of that third report stage, which is trust is developed from trust, that's when somebody is willing to listen to your value proposition.

Ian Kingstone  25:47  
Yeah, yeah.

Simon Woodhouse  25:48  
Yeah. And that, listen, they want to listen to what your, your solution in view of the new world is, from that position only when they've got trust, but you have to go through those stages first to get to that, and they all build on each other. And then from that stage, you can influence and then you get behavioural change, the way you're influencing is that getting them to own the solution, which is what what we're saying about behavioural change, and I'm now willing to adopt a new ways of working, even though it's culturally different to what I am used to. That's when they take action, then you got behavioural change. So it's the sequential step thing. And, you know, that is something that's taken there from neglect crisis negotiation, the FBI, I know that police forces use it in an emergency services use in this country, which is the same thing and explains human nature, and how we interact with each other. And how you'd how you get changed. And, and if organisations don't recognise that, and project teams, or whatever, you can shift through the gears very quickly and lose people. Yeah, but yes, we've all experienced that feeling of not being understood. Barriers come down there, because that person hasn't displayed to you or said to you what it is you want to hear. So you're not listening, you're waiting for what it is you want to hear.

Ian Kingstone  27:10  
Yeah, so. So I kind of use that a since I wouldn't have thought this through in this logical way. But I kind of use a similar technique to kind of line mindsets. And it's not so much that I'm trying to align my mindset as if I've got a couple of people that I want to make sure they're aligned. Or a few people that want to make sure they're aligned. So you give them an opportunity in a workshop to express their ideas, things, they, they, they, you know, talk about problems or whatever challenges or opportunities, let them express their ideas, and then tighten down a bit of a voting process. They can discuss and debate and brighter eyes and things like that, which is commonly done in workshops in many different ways as you need both now I know, you know, both facets of workshops over the years. But but but um, you know, if you think about it are similar. Similar, it's not the same thing. But it's a similar kind of thing about, you're getting other people to listen to each other in that workshop environment. So hopefully, they're starting to understand each other's needs and wants and maybe build some empathy in there, some through that process, maybe through the voting, maybe through other things, and it's not necessarily not going to get them all in one go. But that that that to start to align on some things. That might that might be I've never thought a bit of a trust thing. But maybe that's what that is. Maybe that's how that's that's coming about.

Jonathan Parnaby  28:40  
But don't you think like, I think it's great that we're having this conversation, because it's so true. Doesn't it get to a kind of a dangerous place when you've got two parties that think they're on the same page? But they're not. So there's one element of you know, one party's that Well, I'm not getting what I need from the other party. So barriers go up, as you said, Simon, least up in that situation, now there's work to be done. Right. But when both parties think they're on the same page, but actually they haven't got to that maybe that reports that were they validated, that they're absolutely talking about the same thing. We're all in the same mindset. But really, you're pulling apart from each other, then that that's quite that's quite a dangerous position to be in, isn't it? If you don't go through those steps in office? What I'm trying to say?

Ian Kingstone  29:31  
So how can you be that then what what how did that I mean, how do you? How do you know whether they are around? It's easy for you to say Ian, you need to change and I say yeah, of course I'll change. But then I doubt is that the actions then that I take the proof that I mean, how'd you How'd you know that is easy to say? Yes. Right? And we've all been in situations where lots of people have said yes, and then gone done something completely different. So So, you know, how'd you How'd you know that you've achieved it? I guess? Is there? Is there a way of doing that other than actually seeing people change their habit? or whatever?

Simon Woodhouse  30:13  
Yeah, that Yeah, actions speak louder than words down, they stand back, observe somebody, and they'll let you know their true thoughts through their actions. Also, as well, in the interaction you're having with people the skill in active listening is to be in your example, you're saying, okay, I've changed your I want to change? How do I know that? Well, if we continue to have conversations, and the person who wants to find that out, asks questions, and continues to ask questions, and that facilitates an opening of your mind. So, you know, it's a change technique or a facilitators technique to get the other person thinking out loud. You have what's going on in your mind? And that won't come from one question, it will come from a series of questions that open up into the truth, which is within you.

Ian Kingstone  31:08  
Which is quite interesting, Jonathan, because you and I talked to you taught me a lot about this, some years back now about that whole voice of the business control room stuff, we talked about it in the in season in season one. And but some of that is a little bit of that, isn't it? It's about playing something out. And then listening. Yeah, and seeing where people are understanding, you know, and then maybe in talking about some of the challenges they have with that, to understand it further. And, and

Jonathan Parnaby  31:38  
that's exactly what that is, is now and is probably, you know, when we when we came up with, with the concepts, they probably wasn't as structured as Simon's kind of articulating it from a psychology point of view. But but the principles the same, isn't it because, you know, we don't want change to be one way. We don't want this to be pictorial. This is what we need to do by this arbitrary date that's been put into a calendar, and you must succeed or else, you know,

Ian Kingstone  32:07  
we don't know they've got a willing, they've got a wallet to change.

Jonathan Parnaby  32:10  
Yeah. So there's a whole load of work that needs to be done. They said all the steps that you've got to get, get painful people through. And that first piece is he right is I've got my ears open. Tell me about it. Understand what your challenges are, and acknowledging what those challenges are not just like nodding. Yeah, yeah, sure. Sure. And then moving on to your own agenda. It's it's really, like SES, give and take. It's like any relationship right? You've got to show that one you've understood exactly what their challenges nicer, empathise with it, and then show that how will you go into to work with them to fix those those challenges? Yeah,

Simon Woodhouse  32:51  
if we're talking about mindset, I think that's a mindset shift in the project team and the change managers and anybody who's engaging with the workforce, as much as it's a mindset shift in the people, you're inviting to change

Jonathan Parnaby  33:03  
person. And you just as you said, that, excuse me, I just got a mental core back to that particular programme, then that you're referencing, and you write that programme teams, members of that programme team did a mindset shift, because I just remember sitting in the control room once today, and I can't remember if we mentioned this in the episode, so apologies listeners, if I'm kind of calling back, but I just remember being in a particular region, and they were kicking off. Because the programme was basically demanding all this stuff onto this particular region and say, No, we need testers, we needed to do X, we needed to work on getting the data for for securement systems, etc. It's just constant, throwing stuff over the fence. And you've got to get this done by this day in that, and there's just no coordination. And you know, the business regions got to a point where they were like, hands up like digits is just too much guys. So we just can't process what you're asking for is and it's coming in from 15 different people in the programme team. And now we're getting frustrated, because things like been happening where we haven't got our data back on time. So we can't get, you know, particular activities done in the plan and and then then you're looking at change your fault. So

Simon Woodhouse  34:22  
it is and it's that what you're describing there. I haven't been on a project where we haven't had scenarios like that. And I think there's a balance here as soon as you enter pressure into a situation. People acted differently. there's a there's a bit of self preservation that goes on because of the project plan you're talking about and people are looking and looking for deliverables and projects have to run to a plan because they they've got resources they need to deliver on date correct. But I've never seen a project plan deliver change and you know, contemptuous thing to say but what what I mean is it a project plan will deliver a bunch deliverables on time, to budget, etc. Quality is another issue, but it will deliver on time

Jonathan Parnaby  35:09  
for another episode,

Simon Woodhouse  35:09  
but when when when the project team disbands and goes there, where he how he got change. And that there's usually a phase two in projects, which is the the embedding of change, or the getting of change the adoption of the new ways of day. And those are adoption techniques. And okay, that that can be described as a post go live event, or a post go live bunch of activities to embed the change,

Ian Kingstone  35:33  
sustainable change, there isn't a sustainable change, you know, have you delivered what you were going to deliver, and then sustain the change? even, you know, that then after and what work needs to go on to do that? And, and it's interesting, as we've been talking, actually, because I'm trying to think about the change methods we use today. And still think there's quite a lot of stuff missing there that we've just talked about as being so necessary, you know, without a plan, and I'm not disputing what you said, because I actually agree with what you said, That's never delivered here, right? I mean, you can break change down into elements that allow you to plan and learn and plan and replan and learn and read planning and to drive. Because you've got to have some mechanism, and have some mechanism to, to understand where you're at, and what to do next, and those types of things. But, but But no, I agree, a rigid plan, certainly not.

Jonathan Parnaby  36:29  
A band doesn't measure where the businesses visit. So I think I think what I'm saying is, it kind of resonates for me. So Cloud plan is like, you can plan certain elements of change, ie the deliverables of certain change activities, ie, we need to do this comms and we need to do this training, we need to do business readiness activities, etc. But the plan never tells you that, you know, stakeholder group A are really good. They're on board, we've got report that doing the things we're doing, you know, it doesn't it doesn't

Ian Kingstone  37:00  
really help you with that. No, it doesn't. And I say every preparing probably every day, start change early, because it's always going to take longer than you've planned it. Yeah. And so I know I'm using the word plan, but that you kind of set a plan around those, those hard dates that you know, you can fix to and then how change works in between and, and Simon and I have had many an offline conversation about this. Because you see so many technology driven, change transformation programmes drive to date, but they're so reliant on people change, but that that gets to a much harder level, when you get closer to those dates, and people still aren't ready. If they're not ready. You don't know how to judge that it's difficult to play that. And so I guess that's kind of what I'm trying to say. And I don't think I have an answer for for us. But But it seems like we're nowhere near in our change methods. Yeah. Now, if you're not, I mean, to what we've just discussed of what would what really are, what changes, behavioural changes? Do you see what I'm trying to say? We were still quite immature, in in what we're trying to do and how we measure things. Maybe maybe we're not maybe I'm being unfair on on us. But

Simon Woodhouse  38:20  
I think, because we said at the top of the conversation, now they're betting that, for example, the stairway model of behavioural change, it comes in processes and iterations. And this conversation has evolved through iterations of different viewpoints, listening, giving and taking. So you can't have a plan that is structured with the, the number of times you can go in great gauge with stakeholder group A and then expect to have an outcome after that you will have an outcome to the degree with which that was successful. Yeah. But like you were saying, in start, start change earlier, which means engage with people start getting them to understand that that that change is happening, doesn't matter. They don't necessarily need to know what the change is, but just loosen their position or listen, you've got a chance to listen to them, gain the trust, then when you've got some some value proposition to put in front of them, they're more likely to say, Okay, this guy understands me. I want to listen to what he's saying. And maybe there's I think there's always a dichotomy, certainly in the types of projects that we get involved in where that where you're implementing a system that the system isn't ready to explain to people, the deep change associated with it, until probably, we're testing it, the business is testing it. So as change managers, we have a role to play. Almost like account managers to these stakeholder groups, where the example you gave Jonathan the example you gave, well, you've got a people feeling overwhelmed. It's all coming out though. But if you're the account manager there and you set up a separate session where you just go out, I will translate this for you outside You're down, I'll make it doable and seem doable. And I'll help you and assist you along the way. And I think that's a big role for change managers that account management piece, which is difficult because, you know, it's almost like an additional bit of work, what do they call it? They, you know, it's stakeholder management and that they, you know,

Ian Kingstone  40:21  
in old money stakeholder management, but just as you were saying that they're, you know, I was trying to explain to a prospect this week, why they need change management. Right. And, and, and then defining different roles. In that in the Change Management Group, if you want, you want to call it that. And you kind of end up getting into a conversation around roles and responsibilities. I can't think other than stakeholder management, I can't think of an i don't think that explains what you just said. Yeah, I think it's part of it. But I don't think it's an element of it. But I like that I like the whole account management piece. And again, that needs to get into that. That role. Right, is exactly what I'm thinking about. You know, I've worked with Jonathan quite a lot. So I know how he goes about things. And there's exactly that the people almost waiting for the Change Manager to turn up and say,

Simon Woodhouse  41:22  
Don't worry, this is what it all means. Yeah. And have have those empathetic conversations. And and I've said too many times in these users or mantra, I saw chance, having the right answer isn't always the right answer. So technically, you might be correct, the system will do X, Y, and Zed for you. But people don't want to hear that they want to hear you demonstrating an understanding of their world. And, yeah, and I've kind of read this, quite recently, that change should happen in their world, not yours. It's not about you, it's about them. And as soon as project teams get that, you know, the products and services, that's that's what this project team is offering, they're offering a product and under sort of service, if you like, and if people ain't buying, you've got to have a look at what it is you're offering, or how it is you're trying to sell it. And temporary checks and all the rest of it, you can understand where stakeholder groups are to a degree, but it's only the person who's having the regular interaction with those people who really get gets to understand, because you go to the sponsors and the senior people in faceless steering committees, and they'll say, you know, oh, this is going on in this area. I know, because it's my people. But like we said before, earlier on culture is what happens when managers leave the room. Yeah. So there's a, there's an underlying level there that only people who are in regular contact can either understand and influence because they've got the relationship. Thinking about the England football team and our culture. there's a there's a key thing here with with change, which is about fairness. And it's in our culture. And I think it's in human nature as well, where the way we've evolved. So if the process of change is fair, you're more likely to get people wanting to come to the table. You know, that's why we have the phrase. Oh, fair enough. You know, so, in what you what you're saying, Jonathan there where you got the stakeholder group that holds thrown their hands up overlap overwhelmed what they're feeling is This is unfair.

Jonathan Parnaby  43:26  
Yeah. While another relationship. Yeah, right.

Simon Woodhouse  43:29  
Yeah, this is unfair. And so fairness has to be a big thing in the in the process, as does autonomy. Those are big motivating factors in place.

Ian Kingstone  43:39  
So that that kind of just that whole conversation to stick is a good way, I think of explaining why, why you need to do that change. Base, not saying I know you guys know that already. Right. But there's a lot of people who think, you know, it's a lot of people think you just don't just throw it in, and they'll manage it. I've seen so many managers say that. Our team's pretty good, right? They can take on some pretty good challenges. The just just tell them what they're gonna do when and they'll they'll get through it. Do you see what I mean? But what we've just said there is that's probably not true in many a case. And it might be with some people, admittedly, but but you know, the wildcard of all transformations is still people. So whichever way you look at it, mindsets, change all that stuff. And I can't help but think modern methods of delivery and, and more and more is quicker, more out of the box, more standard way, is missing that piece. More and more, or it's shortening the cycle in which it can work. So maybe we have to get better at that, as you call it negotiating change or whatever it is the end of the behavioural change. Maybe we've got to find a quicker, better way of doing it where we still fair, we still build that trust. We still you know, maybe there's still steps need to be an escalator.

Jonathan Parnaby  45:07  
But don't you find those things in those conversations that are unplanned and not not formalised in the sense? So naturally before COVID, you would be wandering around the offices and you catch people in kitchens, or you catch them in the corner and go, Oh, yeah, how's things going? And then you get snippets of, of info listening, active listening, empathy. So all these kind of natural Well, I say natural if you're, if you're that way, inclined behaviours, kind of a kind of exhibit themselves. And, and I think even in this kind of pandemic world, like I regular Lee have, you know, quick catch up even five minute chats with with people and that can be not not, not a specific plan meeting to talk about agenda items, A, B, C, D, and E, but just generally been caught up for a few weeks, how's it going? You know, because you just, I just find like, again, this is why it resonates so much for me, just opens that door. And naturally, people like to talk about themselves. Because it's a natural thing. And, and then generally, you can kind of understand what's going on in the world, their world, and this could be a senior stakeholder, it could be an important subject matter expert that you need. So it's kind of a circuit doesn't matter.

Ian Kingstone  46:29  
Just people that are influencers, you could relate some of that to sales, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you called it account management earlier, you know, and sales, sales have been building relationships for years, you know, sales people, their relationships. And we've digitalized more and more of that sales process. And some people prefer to go and look through some kind of digital way.

Jonathan Parnaby  46:52  
Simon's holding a book is human.

Ian Kingstone  46:56  
Yeah, I didn't know exactly. So maybe we need to kind of a customer experience or CRM type thing for transformation. You know, that kind of? I don't know, I'm playing. But but it's building that is understanding the cause the project, understanding the customer? And helping the customer. Yeah, change to what they actually want. Yeah, it's beside themselves, if you want. Yeah. Do you see what I mean?

Ian Kingstone  47:29  

Ian Kingstone  47:30  
I don't know. I'm just trying to think of the bright kind of, I suppose I've got in my head that the this we've got a lot of work to do in this area. And I want to try and find some answers. Yeah, I think

Simon Woodhouse  47:40  
what you're describing will be revealed, at some point, no matter what the culture is in organisation, at some point, people will vote with their feet, what they want, and you'll get it through through actions. So we all know that thing in a meeting room, or generally, in life when people are nodding their head, and you know that that's a false Yes. You know that, then you're saying yes, to make you be quiet or move on or get out? Yeah, it's a false, it's a false Yes. And further down the line, you will get to know what their truth is. And it might have to be a lot of these kitchen taps to get there. Without, that's where they're so valuable. And then the encounter management pieces, staying in touch with them, you can never undervalue the regular contact with people and then the ability to find out what they're feeling as well as, as well as what they're thinking. And then you build up credibility. If I do that for you, if I solve that problem for you, and then you might have to do a bit of legwork, and then you've got some some credibility in the bank, which means you usually get something back. I've seen that so many times. And then you start to crack that nut and it softens, and the trust comes, and then people share more, and then you really get to understand what their state of mind is, is stakeholder.

Jonathan Parnaby  49:00  
Yes, that's an emotional bank account. Isn't that people make withdrawals out of the emotional bank account all the time. Yeah, but why is someone gonna deposit something back in you know, you get it, if you kind of think of it in that way, you. You see it kind of happening. The cash registers opening and people just take like that, and it's no more left. You're done. You're out.

Simon Woodhouse  49:27  
Yeah. And that's what people people try and sell too early. They try and get to yes, too early. Yeah. It's like they try and push what it is the project is trying to do. It's almost like the recipients of it should be grateful. You know, we're coming here to turn your world upside down with this new system and way of working you should be really grateful. It's Oh, hang on a minute, you know nothing about my world. Yeah, you know, and I run this part of the organisation in a way that you Don't know about that really works through the informal networks and ways we get things done. You're going to come in here and tear it down. For you.

Ian Kingstone  50:07  
You are though, aren't you? I mean, yeah. I mean, even from the vision statement, if you want, and, you know, you're trying to sell the vision, you're selling your day from day one, even if I'm in many organisations don't even television. But anyway, but but, you know, from that point, you know, you're trying to that, it's almost like we should be going the other way. But somehow you've got to, you want people to change for a reason, right? And it might be value it might be to survive. It might be lots of other different, different reasons why, but the reason you're doing that change project, will that change programme or that transformation programme? is for what should be some valid reasons. Right? So you sell a vision of why and, and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And, and the journey that you're kind of hoping that the organisation go on to, but that's still selling, as not listening to see. And I think that's quite interesting. And it comes back to something that I believe a lot in and actually, Simon, this is how you and I met, was talking about rich pictures. And it's talking about putting a picture out of what you're trying to achieve for transformation, but not just putting it out. a poster? It's a talking point. Yeah. It's a discussion. It's a well, how do you think we're going to get there? Yeah, it's a, it's something that can be used as a tool. Now, yeah, when I first came into rich pitchers, years and years and years ago, now, it's probably nearly 20 years ago. It was used as board game, and that transformation I was working on, play this kind of game of that drove you down? why we need to change? Yeah. And really brought out the why. Yeah. Which is a sales thing, really. But it's also allowing those questions, those responses, and maybe building some of those steps. If delivered in the right way. So again, another good reason why I still stand by them. But But um, no, I think I think it's finding more of those tools and techniques, I think, as well. is negotiating? I think it is, I think he's negotiating change. Yeah,

Simon Woodhouse  52:25  
it's sales, it's negotiation, I know, they're there hand in hand, is communication, engagement, all of those things. And it's quite interesting nowadays, because a lot of organisations are changing for very strategic reasons, their, you know, their target operating model, the environment they're operating in, their customers are receiving products and services different so that whole environments changing, very disruptive, and to then sell that to, to Johnny, the production manager on the floor, who's knocking his widgets out with his team in a very good way, you know, the, that's quite a sell for him to see the top level reason and why and yet, and yet out of work, there's so much disruption and go in that journey, surrounded by change, and probably adopting it left, right and centre. In work. He's got to be shown the reason and that has to be through a series of interactions and processes for him. For you to display. Yeah, I get where you're coming from now YouTube, do you get why that our direction of travel is there? So?

Jonathan Parnaby  53:37  
Yeah, what do you do not different than inside working outside work, then? I suppose the kind of perspective

Ian Kingstone  53:42  
I think is what's in it, for me is different outside of it. So you give me a mobile phone and I work out I use it because I want to use it. What's in it for me? You give me an accounting, programming work and why not want to use it? But it's not I mean, it's kind of I think I maybe I'm being a bit wrong here. But I think the reason we adopt things quicker or change outside of work is because they're the things we're okay with doing. You know, I mean, we want to do them what's in there's something in it for me, you know, what, why why do we why why do we jump on to downloading movies so quickly, against going to the cinema, because what's in it for me, I can sit at home, I can do it, it's cheaper, what all these different things, you know, and then as soon as you start to, you know, is this so many? I think it's what's in it for me. And I think in business, it's difficult to, I always say it's, again, it comes back to my value staff that that that if you can find value for everybody, you've got perfect transformation programme. Because you can then use that mechanism because people will want it because they can see the value of it.

Jonathan Parnaby  54:57  
There's obviously other changes outside of work that you don't But you do them because you know, but the urgency is there for you to do them, because you see whether you see the value in it, but you have to do it. denial. Yeah.

Ian Kingstone  55:11  
I mean, we could have conversation about, you know, climate climate change is a big one, until you start to see the problems. Yeah, that's that's a good point. And by that time, it's too late. Right. And this is one of the big challenges that we've got with that. And that I've forgotten. Is it grettir? Yeah, but that's what she was trying to say totally Myra for it. She was trying to say, if you leaders don't act this way, how are you expecting everybody else to do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and that's the same thing, isn't it? It's the same guy. Yeah, they've got to see it, and believe it and see the value in it. And then we will. Yeah,

Simon Woodhouse  55:55  
yeah. Yeah. And start to do something about in depth demonstrate seeing it?

Ian Kingstone  56:00  
Yeah. Well, that's what's happening, isn't it? Which is a good thing, right. And I hate to think people have to protest to get these things done. But at least then people start to see that people want this. Yeah. You see what I mean? They want to look after environment and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, it's probably a massive, complex topic. But But you know, what I mean, it's the same thing in it, what's in it for me?

Jonathan Parnaby  56:23  
ability tangibility. So that that, that whole example there, we've trashed Ireland, in the outcomes have certain behaviours for the past, God knows how long. If you see tangibility in terms of, we do x. And now we can see that being reduced something the can can not get your hands on, but something that you can kind of visualise or seeing, ah, I've done this, and this behaviour is now led to this. What's hard is that sometimes it's gonna take a good few years, in that example, before you probably even make a dent in some of them.

Ian Kingstone  56:57  
Yeah. But if you pay to pick up my waste, they need to pick up my waste. And I'll go around and pick up everybody else's as well.

Jonathan Parnaby  57:03  
Here. Yeah, yeah.

Ian Kingstone  57:05  
I know, it sounds silly and a bit silly economics. But did you know what I mean? It's what's in it for me.

Simon Woodhouse  57:12  
And I also think there's a different culture comes to bear when people go into the workplace, and they make free choices outside of the workplace with their changes they want to engage with and take on, they go into the workplace, and there's cultural norms that they fit to, whether consciously or subconsciously, that influence their how they behave. You know, you see, I'm sure we all find ourselves responding to an email in a way that we wouldn't do normally attacking somebody out out of work, because we're sort of,

Ian Kingstone  57:43  
yeah, we're towing a particular cultural line internally. And well, that's the problem with social media isn't that you've hit the nail on the head there with white people can get a bit with social media, it can be pretty wrong the way some people. And Bob Well, that's because that's what we expecting the workplace. Do you see what I mean? And, and that kind of thing? You're right. Yeah, you get that? Right. I think I think, Okay, well, well, that's quite me discussion.

Jonathan Parnaby  58:12  
So it was always gonna, so it's gonna be

Ian Kingstone  58:16  
so what would be raising the bar in this particular context? And what would we what what, what I've, what we've discussed is raising the bar,

Simon Woodhouse  58:25  
raising the bar for me, during this discussion would be the understanding of the techniques to engage with people, you're inviting to change the facilitation techniques that you've you've outlined, and you use, and really trying to make a process out of all of the elements that we're talking about. to bring about more successful change, which was the question you posed halfway through the conversation, how do we gather this? And you know, I think organisations need to spend more time on this, and how do we gather this and make it happen? So Well,

Ian Kingstone  59:04  
how can and can we speed it up? And I don't mean that in a I want it quicker or faster? Because I then can, but I think I think it's better for people. Yeah, if we can help people quicker, if that makes sense. And and and you said it there and I don't think I hear it that often. How do we invite people to change? Yeah, it's inviting people to change rather than how do we make people change? pletely different vocabulary, you know, in what you're saying there? I totally agree. I think it's how can you learn more about those, those ways of doing things? Yeah. And then how can we get better with those where that's really raising the bar?

Simon Woodhouse  59:45  
Yeah, language approach techniques realisation, giving it the full length of time and coaching the project team. Yeah, coaching seniors so they understand what it is you're getting are trying to demonstrate pro So they'll give you a bit of breathing space to do it, the account management bit. You know, doing all of these sorts of things will bring about a better outcome. But it's within the pressured environment of traditional project delivery, ruled by a plant where you've got to take things off that being able to make that balance with limited resources, etc, all the things that come into play in the real world when not not on a discussion or podcast discussion. That's the, that's the real skill is being able to sort of recognise that and, and navigate and negotiate within those parameters to still get a good change outcome. Yeah, that's

Jonathan Parnaby  1:00:43  
fair, that kind of resonates there is that coaching? coaching on a team, especially in you know, a new programme or project team? Yeah. And so that they understand that you need to go through these, these iterations with the business. And, and not only is like, we'd have to worry about change, because we've got the Change Manager, and now for fun, go for that. Yeah. You know, it's like, No, no, no, no, no, no, we, you know, we're all here to do set kind of activities, but we'll go help each other at the same time. And, and, and again, that goes back to behaviours in, in any colleagues and teams so that they help you and not hinder you. And, yeah, so. And that just calls back to my own experience. Because it can be quite often in our programme or is lonely. You're trying to fight the change, say fight it, you know, you're trying to, you know, manage the change, challenge. And you do feel like you can be on your own. And your programme team working against you sometimes.

Ian Kingstone  1:01:43  
Yeah, yeah. And you need that programme team, and you need that change network. We talked about that in the past. And if you had those things working, and we bring in some of these techniques and things we've been talking about. Yeah, I can see that. That's massive. Yeah. Adds a massive amount of value. Yeah,

Simon Woodhouse  1:01:59  
yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So they're in butterfly. Walk on the subject.

Ian Kingstone  1:02:09  
We've got we've got we've got a series of those coming up at some point, I'm sure.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:02:16  
To be made. Is that what we're trying to? Absolutely

Ian Kingstone  1:02:18  
that's how Tim Ferriss does it isn't, you know, he interviews loads of people then writes it all down and sells the book? Along the way, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:02:29  
Well, no, thank you for that. Simon. It's good. to kind of explore the the conversations have changed there and, and, like, say very much on plan, but it's quite good to just flow. And I think that Yeah, I just love it as well. So let's say we wrap up this episode then with the pop quiz question. Yeah, go for it. Okay, so I've got this one again. So I think you owe me to back in just the way okay.

Ian Kingstone  1:03:02  
I owe you now. I know.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:03:04  
Yeah. It's recorded. But no, this this question is kind of a drink question because of Okay. Okay. All right.

Ian Kingstone  1:03:15  
But this one? You never know.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:03:17  
How do you know your cocktails? You got uncocked

Ian Kingstone  1:03:21  
Okay, now you got me worried.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:03:24  
This one is about beer. No, it's not. What are the two main ingredients of a dark and stormy cocktails? dark and stormy are can store me not one I know. So dark.

Ian Kingstone  1:03:39  
It's got to be something

Jonathan Parnaby  1:03:41  

Ian Kingstone  1:03:42  
Yeah. The stormy is even harder to think about what that could do. You could go for ram or black currant or something. Do you know what I mean? That kind of a thing. Or Guinness dance. Getting back to be there we go. I have no idea. Any idea Simon.

Simon Woodhouse  1:04:08  
And I think the room theme Sounds Sounds about right, stormy. stormy. Sailor.

Ian Kingstone  1:04:14  
Yes. I'm a dark room with Coke. Bubbles still alive, isn't it? Yeah. stormy. Maybe that's it. It's a rum and coke shaken up

Jonathan Parnaby  1:04:33  
for coffee. But I like well, we'll get to the answer on the next episode. But no, thank you. Thanks for talking to us. We've been here too long. And he talks is when we leave in the Absolutely. below Thank you, Simon for taking the time out. And I'm gonna chat with us. It's been really, really fun. And yeah, I've enjoyed it a lot. So Appreciate it. Cheers. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Let's see you next time. Cheers. Okay, so we're back. It's question time. So this is a good one, actually, because we've had a few questions related to our first episode. All around procurement. In fact, obviously, Sarah Walters came on and did the episode. But this is our very special guest. And we've had a question basically come through. So what we thought we'd do instead of answering a procurement type question for me and as because we're not the experts here. We'd ask Sarah to actually answer. So we're off the hook this this week by

Ian Kingstone  1:05:49  
listen to so much about dulcet tones.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:05:51  
Absolutely. So we will basically let Sara handle the question. So over to you, Sarah.

Sarah Walters  1:05:57  
So we've had another question in from one of the listeners to the podcast. And the question is, as an SME, what do I need to have in place to feel confident to approach corporate companies to bid for work? In other words, what do I need to do to stand a chance of getting onto their PSL or preferred supplier list? So I think this is actually a really great question. But I don't actually think it's, it's a very easy one to answer. Because there are so many parameters at play, when companies run tenders, there isn't really, this is what you need to do to get to get in the door. However, I do think there are some things that you can consider that most large organisations will be looking for when they're putting work out tenders. So I think the first thing I would advise you to do is get clear on your sweet spot. So what is it that you're offering selling, you know, what's your USP basically, and make sure you can clearly articulate that, and then I would only respond to those opportunities that you feel are a great fit for you. So as a smaller organisation, you will potentially be lower cost or more agile, or maybe offer more flexibility than some of your larger peers. So I think if you make sure that you focus on those requirements that actually fit really well with you, then you've got more chance of of being considered and potentially even winning the business. I think the second thing I would say to consider is make sure that you've got processes and policies in place that large organisations will be looking for, to show them that you are serious and professional. And also to make sure that you can actually get through that basic level of requirements. So they will have some due diligence boxes that they need ticking. And some basics I can think of will be things like anti bribery and corruption policies, information security, ethical trading, and they will ask for those to be demonstrated for every single tender that they go out for. You should also be thinking about making sure you've got the right level of professional indemnity and public liability insurance. And you might need to be prepared to invest some money to increase the levels. If the clients are asking for that. It's okay to ask them to justify the levels they're asking for. But But I think, you know, if you want to, if you want to be considered, then they would expect to just be able to tick those boxes. And another one in the same sort of vein is also be prepared to sign up to their terms and conditions. I don't mean, you should do that, without review, you should absolutely review what they send you as part of the tender. But I think the thing that you can do to be prepared is make sure you've got good legal support available, who will take a pragmatic and risk based approach to reviewing the terms for you. And, you know, highlighting only key areas of risk. I think saying yes to the customer terms is often a prerequisite for being considered. And it makes you more easy to deal with than some of the other organisations who might be trying to push their terms. It's okay to highlight risks and say you'd want to talk about certain points. But I think if you're generally okay to work on their terms, then that that stands you in good stead. And I think the other thing I would say is don't oversell so I think your response would need to be comprehensive but clear. Sitting on the other side of the fence advising clients when they're looking at responses, there's nothing worse than trying to pick your way through a really over complicated response. So I would say make sure you answer all the questions. Ideally, follow the customers structure or their numbering system with the questions they've asked you so that you can make sure it's really easy for them to see where you've answered them. questions and then it will be easy for them to read. You obviously need to demonstrate you can meet the requirements. But I think you need to also be honest about areas you can't fully support, it won't necessarily take you out of the process. But I think there's no point trying to cover up the fact if you can't actually meet meet all the needs. And I think you can allude to other products and services that you could offer around the edges of the scope. But I think it should be secondary in your response and sort of definitely segregated into a separate section, so that they can either look at it or not look at it as they decide they want to. And I think, you know, with a number of responses to review, there's often a tight timescale, anything that you can do to help them get through your response quickly and efficiently will be will be appreciated. So I hope that's helpful on that one.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:10:55  
If you want to record a question for next time, just you know, just record that question. Send it so hosts up there and butterfly co UK because we love to get people's voices on this podcast, right? Yeah.

Ian Kingstone  1:11:08  
Yeah, no, it's great. Sounds good.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:11:10  
Right. Alright, see you next time. It's last orders at the bar. So thank you for listening to the beer and butterfly. As always, we want to encourage participation. You can

Ian Kingstone  1:11:19  
get more details of the episodes on our website, which is www dot Behr and That's www dot Behr and

Jonathan Parnaby  1:11:32  
You can get in touch with the show by emailing us on posts, beer and butterfly Cody UK, send us your questions written or recorded. We'll come and join us at the table as a guest.

Ian Kingstone  1:11:43  
Also check out our LinkedIn page, beer and butterfly podcast and on Twitter, at butterfly underscore bear, where you can engage with the show directly and get involved.

Jonathan Parnaby  1:11:56  
Yeah, we look forward to seeing you at the table next time.

Introducing our guest...Simon Woodhouse
Pub quiz - Question 9 Answer
What have we been up to?
Football & Business behavioural change
Culture, mirroring & negotiating
Behavioural change stairway model
Aligning and shifting mindsets
Measure and sustaining the change
Change account management
Change happens when it's fair
Talking points through rich pictures
Raising the bar through inviting people to change
Pub quiz - Question 10
Thanking Simon
Question time
Last orders